General Election Pre-Thread (4 of 6)

[sheepyvillian]

28 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

It’s a spectrum isn’t it? Were they more to the right than Corbyns labour? Yes, but to call them “right wing” is a bit much.

If you ignore Iraq they’re comfortably the best government of the last 50 years. Especially when you look at thatcher before them and the utter embarrassment after.

Asian women told to not wear "Veils". Told to speak English in their homes. Black culture is responsible for knife crime. Sounds pretty right - wing to me. 

And anyone with a sense of decency is never going to ignore the atrocity of the Iraq war.

That's how Labour gets elected, by marginalizing the Labour left. 

Edited June 15 by sheepyvillian

[sheepyvillian]

1 minute ago, meregreen said:

Bully for you. Is about as banal as it gets. People will be voting on their Gas bill, food costs, lack of housing, NHS crumbling, public standards falling . All of which were better under Blair’s Govt. If you can’t see the difference between any Labour Govt left or right, and a Tory one then you haven’t been watching.

So we'll just ignore the racist rhetoric, the tagging of children, the expansion of private finance in the NHS. The privatisation of prisons. I could go on. Have you ever been to a food bank? 

"It was better", for you maybe. Don't presume to speak for others. Cliche after cliche. 

[meregreen]

1 minute ago, sheepyvillian said:

So we'll just ignore the racist rhetoric, the tagging of children, the expansion of private finance in the NHS. The privatisation of prisons. I could go on. Have you ever been to a food bank? 

"It was better", for you maybe. Don't presume to speak for others. Cliche after cliche. 

Dear me you do come across as rather angry, if not tetchy.I’ve never claimed to speak for others. Just for some context here.I have been a member of the Labour Party for many years, NYE Bevan and Tony Benn and Clem Attlee are my political heroes, I voted for Corbyn in the leadership election and yes I have visited that abomination known as a food bank. Politically, it’s no good dwelling on the wrongs of 20 years ago. The Tories are the cause of our problems now. Let’s concentrate on getting them out. Their greatest trick over the last 100 years is to get people who mean nothing to them, to vote for them. Throw your barbs in their direction, they’re a big enough target, and far more deserving of them than any Labour government of any era.

[bickster]

 

[bickster]

 

[Jon]

8 hours ago, blandy said:

there is a huge chunk of the nation that would vote for a centre right party, if there was one. 

There is. They're about to get elected with a super-majority, apparently 

[bickster]

13 minutes ago, Jon said:

There is. They're about to get elected with a super-majority, apparently 

Charging VAT on private school fees

Removing Non-Dom Tax loopholes

Nationalising the railways

And all that other right wing stuff they seem to have put in their manifesto.

They really aren’t centre right

 

[Jon]

8 hours ago, bickster said:

Charging VAT on private school fees

Removing Non-Dom Tax loopholes

Nationalising the railways

And all that other right wing stuff they seem to have put in their manifesto.

They really aren’t centre right

 

I can get behind those things.  But they're very, very small steps in the right (left) direction.  It's tinkering, compared to what is needed.  

I still consider them centre right.  But the Overton window has shifted so much that this may be considered  by some to be 'centre left'. It really isn't.  

I'm not sure how accurate the political compass website it, but it has them way out to the right.  

It's been a canny political move to make this shift and to occupy the electoral ground that used to be the tories home.  As the tories go further right, they've squeezed them out of that 'centre right' position. Thus giving the electorate nobody else to vote for in that rich fallow ground other than Labour. 

[bickster]

6 minutes ago, Jon said:

I still consider them centre right.  But the Overton window has shifted so much that this may be considered  by some to be 'centre left'. It really isn't.  

 

Obviously entitled to your opinion but it isn't correct. There's no way a party pushing those three policies can be considered to be on the right of any scale. If the Overton window has shifted rightwards as you suggest, then those policies would be even MORE left of centre

[ml1dch]

3 minutes ago, Jon said:

I'm not sure how accurate the political compass website it, but it has them way out to the right.  

It's not accurate in the slightest. I saw a similar one done by an academic a couple of weeks ago and it had the current Tory party slightly left of centre on economic policy, let alone Labour. 

Not saying that's correct either, but neither are evidence of anything any more than some random crazy person saying "Rishi Sunak is a socialist" or "Keir Starmer is a fascist" is.

[bickster]

The amount of people sharing UK Polling Report individual constituency "reports" and encouraging people to vote tactically on the basis of those reports is doing my absolute nut in

UK Polling Report is absolute bollocks, its getting many seats very wrong. It seems to be taking 2019 results and applying a current polling average to them. Its beyind shite its dangerously bad and people are giving the wrong advice

As an example - Islington North. COrbyn despite being the incumbent MP and accepted wisdom is that its a two horse race between Labour and him. UK Polling report has him down as less than 1% of the vote. There are seats in the SOuth West (I think I spotted a Portsmouth one) where people were being encouraged to vote Labour to get rid of the Tory when its quite clearly a vote LibDem to get rid of the Tory seat

It's that bad, you'd have to suspect its been set up as a spoiler

[bickster]

Encouraging if true. Also points to a potentially higher turnout than some people are expecting

Also Reforms showing in the polls would indicate a high ish turnout as a good chunk of them would have been stay at home politicians are all the same idiots

[ml1dch]

9 minutes ago, bickster said:

Encouraging if true. Also points to a potentially higher turnout than some people are expecting

Also Reforms showing in the polls would indicate a high ish turnout as a good chunk of them would have been stay at home politicians are all the same idiots

I've thought for a while that the low-interest, low-turnout thing wasn't how it would play out. 

Nobody seems to be talking about it, but that feels to me as though there's not much to talk about. Just get 'em out.

[bickster]

Another thing that may start getting mentioned and to look out for (not that you'll be able to miss it). A Zinoviev moment

A thread to explain its origins.

 

[mjmooney]

25 minutes ago, bickster said:

Another thing that may start getting mentioned and to look out for (not that you'll be able to miss it). A Zinoviev moment

A thread to explain its origins.

 

But who are they going to use it against? If there's any party that's clandestinely controlled by Moscow these days, it's not Labour, it's Reform. 

[bickster]

14 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

But who are they going to use it against? If there's any party that's clandestinely controlled by Moscow these days, it's not Labour, it's Reform. 

Taking it too literally Mike. False claim, amplified by the RWM leading to election changing voting patterns. Then Russia bit isn’t the bit to take away from this

[mjmooney]

7 minutes ago, bickster said:

Taking it too literally Mike. False claim, amplified by the RWM leading to election changing voting patterns. Then Russia bit isn’t the bit to take away from this

OK, not Moscow interference as such (although, as I said above, it might well be a valid claim vis a vis Reform). 

But the question remains, whatever false claim they come up with, who are they going to direct it at? Labour, or Reform? 

[Danwichmann]

1 minute ago, mjmooney said:

OK, not Moscow interference as such (although, as I said above, it might well be a valid claim vis a vis Reform). 

But the question remains, whatever false claim they come up with, who are they going to direct it at? Labour, or Reform? 

If they stay true to form, it'll be one faction of the Tory Party directing it at another faction of the party. 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, mjmooney said:

OK, not Moscow interference as such (although, as I said above, it might well be a valid claim vis a vis Reform). 

But the question remains, whatever false claim they come up with, who are they going to direct it at? Labour, or Reform? 

Nothing stopping them doing both, but I imagine Labour, if they’ve been reading the polling correctly (which is highly unlikely on current form). Reform to Tory votes are going to be incredibly hard to shift, they literally don’t care about anything other than Farage being the new messiah.

[PaulC]

20 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

Asian women told to not wear "Veils". Told to speak English in their homes. Black culture is responsible for knife crime. Sounds pretty right - wing to me. 

And anyone with a sense of decency is never going to ignore the atrocity of the Iraq war.

That's how Labour gets elected, by marginalizing the Labour left. 

Funny how the interpretation of left and right had changed. Left used to be about social justice nationalisation. Unions 

Edited June 16 by PaulC