Zatman Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 9 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Not like you to come out with some nonsense negative hyperbole about an English player... Yet spent more time in the Euros defending England players over the people that bash them regularly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted July 16 VT Supporter Share Posted July 16 14 hours ago, ozvillafan said: I remember one of his long balls forward that sailed into the opposition box and the keepers arms. The cameras focused on Ollie who is facing Pickford, gesticulating wildly and with both hands pointing to himself and saying "Aim for me! Aim for me!!" Summed it up, really. Yeah, I noticed that immediately. Ollie looked really pissed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 1 hour ago, mjmooney said: Yeah, I noticed that immediately. Ollie looked really pissed off. Wasnt that when England were chasing the game as well? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 3 hours ago, sheepyvillian said: You can't solely blame the manager for a player panicking when the ball comes to him. I expect a 100 million pound midfielder to demand the ball, regardless of the pressure. That's a lack of self - belief in your own ability. It's easy to look great when you're the dominant side with all the possession, as is the case most times when he's playing for Arsenal. It's when you have to earn your territory, that's where the really good players make their mark, Rodri being a classic example. Sometimes you have to make things happen. Bellingham may have disappointed, but he's never afraid to try and make things happen, even if they don't come off. There are moments when he oozes class. The fact is, you will never see Declan Rice in a Real Madrid shirt. The lack of self belief came from the manager. And the style of play he instilled in the team. There's no confidence that if you mess up that your forwards will be able to bail you out. This adds pressure. For their clubs, they know that there'll get plenty of chances and an error won't define their game. So they don't tend to make any anyway because there's less pressure. Rice isn't a £100m player imo, but he is a very capable DM if he has a team around him that isn't looking clueless in possession. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avfc96 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 1 hour ago, Zatman said: Wasnt that when England were chasing the game as well? Was at 1-1 I think, it was the culmination of when Walker could have launched a throw into the box, instead threw it all the way back to Stones, who then passed it back to Pickford who then launched it towards no-one and went out for a goal kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, MrBlack said: The lack of self belief came from the manager. And the style of play he instilled in the team. There's no confidence that if you mess up that your forwards will be able to bail you out. This adds pressure. For their clubs, they know that there'll get plenty of chances and an error won't define their game. So they don't tend to make any anyway because there's less pressure. Rice isn't a £100m player imo, but he is a very capable DM if he has a team around him that isn't looking clueless in possession. As much as I find Southgate's football dreary, let's not pretend England players have not been shirking the responsibility, that comes with playing for your country, since 66. "Pressure is for tyres." Really, Alan. You should have whispered that in each player's ear before the whistle went. Edited July 16 by sheepyvillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaJ100 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 Walker in team of the tournament 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) 20 minutes ago, VillaJ100 said: Walker in team of the tournament Probably on account of taking the longest throw - in. You're talking at least 50 metres. It certainly seemed that long at the time. Edited July 16 by sheepyvillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 32 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: As much as I find Southgate's football dreary, let's not pretend England players have not been shirking the responsibility, that comes with playing for your country, since 66. "Pressure is for tyres." Really, Alan. You should have whispered that in each player's ear before the whistle went. Yeah, maybe the responsibility to ask Southgate what the hell they were supposed to be doing, an don't play Kane! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) 45 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Yeah, maybe the responsibility to ask Southgate what the hell they were supposed to be doing, an don't play Kane! I get it, he's a terrible manager. But players are not children. They have to take their share of responsibility. Southgate didn't tell walker to throw the ball back to his defenders when he was adjacent to the opposition penalty box. That was on Walker. When Villa fans go on about the 16 relegation side, they don't say, "it wasn't Richards fault or Lescotts, it was all down to the manager." Same rules apply. If there's no collective responsibility, how do you learn anything? It's so easy to just pass the buck. I'm delighted he has gone, but those players need to grow up quick. Edited July 16 by sheepyvillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 38 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: I get it, he's a terrible manager. But players are not children. They have to take their share of responsibility. Southgate didn't tell walker to throw the ball back to his defenders when he was adjacent to the opposition penalty box. That was on Walker. When Villa fans go on about the 16 relegation side, they don't say, "it wasn't Richards fault or Lescotts, it was all down to the manager." Same rules apply. If there's no collective responsibility, how do you learn anything? It's so easy to just pass the buck. I'm delighted he has gone, but those players need to grow up quick. But they'd never shown any footballing ability in the previous year or any year that followed. They were spent players. Those playing for England had had amazing seasons and will no doubt go on to be amazing next season too. I agree the players could have overcome the coaching too, and maybe that's how they got as far as they did. They definitely didn't cover themselves in glory, but having seen what Gerrard did to our squad of Champions League qualifying form players, it's easy to see when a manager is to blame. And in this case, the players have shown themselves able to cope with tournament pressure at club level, so the common denominator for failure is Southgate, not the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, MrBlack said: But they'd never shown any footballing ability in the previous year or any year that followed. They were spent players. Those playing for England had had amazing seasons and will no doubt go on to be amazing next season too. I agree the players could have overcome the coaching too, and maybe that's how they got as far as they did. They definitely didn't cover themselves in glory, but having seen what Gerrard did to our squad of Champions League qualifying form players, it's easy to see when a manager is to blame. And in this case, the players have shown themselves able to cope with tournament pressure at club level, so the common denominator for failure is Southgate, not the players. So the previous "Golden Generation," whose responsible for their failure? The manager again? It's been the same story time and time again. England players just don't have what it takes to win trophies. It wasn't Southgate who surrendered the momentum, it was the players. That comes down to mentality. If you have enough self - belief, you may just get over the line. England, sadly, on Sundays evidence, lacked the required self - belief. Pickford aimlessly kicking the ball long. Yet when the Spanish goalkeeper went long, he went low and nine times out of ten found a teammate. That's taking responsibility. You can't panic at that stage of the tournament. Edited July 16 by sheepyvillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) I don’t like this idea that players have to take responsibility whenever things don’t work out. Yes they have to take responsibility for putting in a shift and executing in key moments, but ultimately it’s an 11-a-side game and the players can’t just spontaneously coordinate what they’re doing without a clear plan. We all remember the instant impact Emery made on our players without making any signings. He achieved that by getting them to work together as a team with clear instructions. That was after Gerrard had convinced us that most of the players weren’t good enough to progress beyond mid table, and that they weren’t producing enough “moments of magic”. Turns out a lot of players just need to be given the right instructions, in a coherent way. I always felt like Southgate’s England had that in defence, but attack was this organic abstract thing where nobody really knew what the plan was. Of course the players are going to look clueless in that situation. Especially the ones like Foden who play for clubs where their managers are very thorough, have a very structured system and have incredible attention to detail. Edited July 16 by KentVillan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 39 minutes ago, KentVillan said: I don’t like this idea that players have to take responsibility whenever things don’t work out. Yes they have to take responsibility for putting in a shift and executing in key moments, but ultimately it’s an 11-a-side game and the players can’t just spontaneously coordinate what they’re doing without a clear plan. We all remember the instant impact Emery made on our players without making any signings. He achieved that by getting them to work together as a team with clear instructions. That was after Gerrard had convinced us that most of the players weren’t good enough to progress beyond mid table, and that they weren’t producing enough “moments of magic”. Turns out a lot of players just need to be given the right instructions, in a coherent way. I always felt like Southgate’s England had that in defence, but attack was this organic abstract thing where nobody really knew what the plan was. Of course the players are going to look clueless in that situation. Especially the ones like Foden who play for clubs where their managers are very thorough, have a very structured system and have incredible attention to detail. I'd say at a guess that seeing as Southgate only made one real unforced change to his starting 11 all tournament he thought that things were going exactly to plan This isn't like league football in a team with good players but are circling the drain at the bottom of the table, this is a team that played badly but kept heading in the right direction, why would the players take it upon themselves to say nah bollocks I'm going off in a different direction? You're not going to get a mutiny while the team kept progressing and you won't get a mutiny after a run of losses because international football doesn't work like that Us all thinking the plan was shit and boring is neither here nor there 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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