sheepyvillian Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, villa4europe said: nah this isnt the players this is all southgate England's mentality has always had a question mark over it. The doubt, was once again, palpable last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 17 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: England's mentality has always had a question mark over it. The doubt, was once again, palpable last night. i don't think its a mentality thing i think the players played exactly how the manager wanted them to play last night, like ETH said, score a goal, go compact, sit deep, try and snatch a second with a moment of magic its utter madness that's how southgate wants to play but in terms of game plan we were on point last night, the only thing that didn't go to plan was Kane's header hit the bar, if he scores that and we win 2-0 (or even add a third) then we've just seen a perfectly executed game of southgateball 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pas5898 Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 36 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Foden is excellent on the left. He’s not for England. Foden is an absolutely wonderful player, but he is the very definition of a PepBot, systematically programmed to play a certain specific way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterw Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 There was too much going on that the players are getting the blame for that had to have come from Southgate not getting into the box - especially first half - in any numbers, launching the ball from the keeper every time he got it, when the centre halves had the ball at no point was pickford used to reset with the central defenders spreading to create space, launch up to kane and win the second ball, foden not looking to break into the box or to run the channels and so on. It was very conservative and you could argue that Southgate wanted to just get the campaign under way and for us to get the 3 points. i also don't buy into the media narrative that seems to going around that Pickford saved us (certainly the commentator last night alluded to it by saying when England were 1 up late on 'in no small measure thanks to pickford' ignoring an even better save at the other end, and ignoring that the snap shot from Vlahovic was there only shot on target of note. Serbia were limited and never really a threat so I was never unduly worried. That said, our lack of composure on the ball in the defence throughout the game was worrying which includes Pickford. That's what will do for us, and that's what Southgate has not been able to adapt to in the game since he finished playing. He cannot coach what the top teams do and all teams in the prem are comfortable playing out from the keeper to some degree, England appear not to have the same ease despite having the players from clubs that can and do do it. That is the real area of concern for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cizzler Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 14 minutes ago, pas5898 said: Foden is an absolutely wonderful player, but he is the very definition of a PepBot, systematically programmed to play a certain specific way. Can you explain this, as I've seen this take so many times and I don't get it. What way has Pep specifically programmed him to play? And why is he unable to repeat this unless playing under Pep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, VillaChris said: He's an English manager who's actually just managed in the CL so that makes him more qualified than anyone domestically bar probably Brendan Rodgers but his stock is far lower now after the way it ended at Leicester. If Englishness is an important part of this qualification, Rodgers isn't English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 2 minutes ago, ml1dch said: If Englishness is an important part of this qualification, Rodgers isn't English. Fine with any brit, Cooper is Welsh but was in charge of England under 17s when they won the World cup in 2017. Foden, Guehi, Sancho and Conor Gallagher all part of that squad. It would be no different to De La Fuente in charge of Spain when him managing Alaves in 2011 is only time he's managed a top level club side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 56 minutes ago, villa4europe said: i don't think its a mentality thing i think the players played exactly how the manager wanted them to play last night, like ETH said, score a goal, go compact, sit deep, try and snatch a second with a moment of magic its utter madness that's how southgate wants to play but in terms of game plan we were on point last night, the only thing that didn't go to plan was Kane's header hit the bar, if he scores that and we win 2-0 (or even add a third) then we've just seen a perfectly executed game of southgateball The penalty miss by Kane against France is a prime example of the mentality issue. I'm fully on board concerning the shortcomings of Southgate as a manager. However, for me, it's quite evident, especially on that 2nd half performance, that there's a brittleness to that side in the psychological department. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 Trying to be as objective as possible, if Konsa and Watkins had played, we would have won that 5 - 0. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted June 17 VT Supporter Share Posted June 17 5 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: The penalty miss by Kane against France is a prime example of the mentality issue. I'm fully on board concerning the shortcomings of Southgate as a manager. However, for me, it's quite evident, especially on that 2nd half performance, that there's a brittleness to that side in the psychological department. Over the years we've had a mentality problem, this group I'm not so sure, look at where they play and what they have achieved. I'm with @villa4europe, I mean look at how we played when the aim was scoring first. We played like 20 minutes of high intensity, technically excellent football. Keeping control of the ball and progressing quickly to make chances. They really could not live with it and we looked great. Then we scored and the aim became don't concede and see what we can get in transition, which in a really well drilled side where it's clear who has to come out fast to suppor the 9 might have worked better. What happened was Kane isolated and an inability to get up the pitch in possession as they were all in 20 yards of the box focusing on keeping the shape. Tha longer that went on the worse they looked and I guess that then does become a mental issue as the players don't have the confidence in the system and what they are doing anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 21 minutes ago, romavillan said: Over the years we've had a mentality problem, this group I'm not so sure, look at where they play and what they have achieved. I'm with @villa4europe, I mean look at how we played when the aim was scoring first. We played like 20 minutes of high intensity, technically excellent football. Keeping control of the ball and progressing quickly to make chances. They really could not live with it and we looked great. Then we scored and the aim became don't concede and see what we can get in transition, which in a really well drilled side where it's clear who has to come out fast to suppor the 9 might have worked better. What happened was Kane isolated and an inability to get up the pitch in possession as they were all in 20 yards of the box focusing on keeping the shape. Tha longer that went on the worse they looked and I guess that then does become a mental issue as the players don't have the confidence in the system and what they are doing anymore. I just think, mentality wise, we will be found wanting against another quality side. The players have to take some responsibility. I remember in 1990 when Bobby Robson was getting all the flack for some, uninspired, performances. Over the years, we have come to learn that the players took it upon themselves to play with a bit more cohesion and self - belief. Incidentally, our exit, in that tournament, was very much a mentality issue. Stuart Pearce, any other day. Same with Kane, bottled it in that decisive moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, Cizzler said: Can you explain this, as I've seen this take so many times and I don't get it. What way has Pep specifically programmed him to play? And why is he unable to repeat this unless playing under Pep? He's the focal point in that City team. Pep is light years ahead of Safegate. After 8 years Southgate is apparently still experimenting. There's no real winning mentality in the England squad, Southgate is too nice and too bothered about keeping the squad happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cizzler Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 12 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: He's the focal point in that City team. Pep is light years ahead of Safegate. After 8 years Southgate is apparently still experimenting. There's no real winning mentality in the England squad, Southgate is too nice and too bothered about keeping the squad happy. Not disagreeing with anything you've said - but it doesn't answer my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted June 17 VT Supporter Share Posted June 17 29 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: I just think, mentality wise, we will be found wanting against another quality side. The players have to take some responsibility. I remember in 1990 when Bobby Robson was getting all the flack for some, uninspired, performances. Over the years, we have come to learn that the players took it upon themselves to play with a bit more cohesion and self - belief. Incidentally, our exit, in that tournament, was very much a mentality issue. Stuart Pearce, any other day. Same with Kane, bottled it in that decisive moment. Yeah I know what you mean, historically at crucial moments English players have just not been able to find it mentally when it counted. If you look at that 1990 team though, there were only a couple that had done the business at a European level and when they were on a pitch with genuine world class talent you could understand them realising they weren't at the same level. This group is different though, we genuinely have players who have won or gone deep in the highest level of competition on the planet playing against the best. I don't think our big problem is the mentality, or even technical ability anymore and it always was. The problem now to be perfectly honest is tactical. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, sheepyvillian said: The penalty miss by Kane against France is a prime example of the mentality issue. I'm fully on board concerning the shortcomings of Southgate as a manager. However, for me, it's quite evident, especially on that 2nd half performance, that there's a brittleness to that side in the psychological department. Definitely, that's been the case since 66. Huge pressure on the team everytime they perform. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 10 minutes ago, PaulC said: Definitely, that's been the case since 66. Huge pressure on the team everytime they perform. its not pressure that makes us hold a line 40 yards from our own goal and not push out when we win the ball back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 6 hours ago, Zhan_Zhuang said: Yeah Bowen looked decent... Thing is your hatred for Southgate aside England have some great players and someone like Bellingham could help drag England through. Think Palmer and Saka should be rotated; get Palmer in for the next game and freshen it up a bit. It’s perfectly possible for someone to believe he isn’t at the level required without it being hatred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewiek2 Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 Considering Southgate has spent 8 years recreating a club-like atmosphere with England I can safely say he's succeeded in recreating that shit Boro side he got relegated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, villa4europe said: its not pressure that makes us hold a line 40 yards from our own goal and not push out when we win the ball back I didn't suggest it was. I'm referring to the critical moments in a tournament, when everything is on the line. We have a tendency to let the moment overwhelm, instead of embracing it and taking the bull by the horns. I'm not enamoured by Southgate at all, but the players, themselves, have to step up and show the self - belief that is, invariably, required to win a tournament like this. Edited June 17 by sheepyvillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 35 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: It’s perfectly possible for someone to believe he isn’t at the level required without it being hatred. I would certainly hope so too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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