Euro 2024: Group C (Denmark, England, Serbia, Slovenia)

[VillaAlex]

Only one change tonight, Gallagher is in for TAA I suppose. 

Absolute idiot. Can't wait for the 60th minute inverse substitution as his first idea to change things up. 

Can't wait for us to bomb out, I'm English but have zero love for the national side other than our own guys.  I enjoy watching football, but not the shite he continually makes us play. 

It's awful squad planning for a tournament as well. It's obvious Kane isn't 100%, or Stones but let's chuck them in every game. Lets take a left back who clearly isn't going to be fit enough to play. Lets take some in form and exciting but inexperienced midfielders but not play them at all. Instead playing a right back. We'll probably then see them thrown in at crunch time.

 

[desensitized43]

2 minutes ago, VillaAlex said:

Only one change tonight, Gallagher is in for TAA I suppose. 

Absolute idiot. Can't wait for the 60th minute inverse substitution as his first idea to change things up. 

Can't wait for us to bomb out, I'm English but have zero love for the national side other than our own guys.  I enjoy watching football, but not the shite he continually makes us play. 

It's awful squad planning for a tournament as well. It's obvious Kane isn't 100%, or Stones but let's chuck them in every game. Lets take a left back who clearly isn't going to be fit enough to play. Lets take some in form and exciting but inexperienced midfielders but not play them at all. Instead playing a right back. We'll probably then see them thrown in at crunch time.

 

One change!?

It's like this clown is gaslighting the nation.

[Stevo985]

Yeah as predicted it'll be Gallagher in for TAA. Which don't get me wrong is an upgrade, but we still need more.

[Stevo985]

I'm also seeing the "the players aren't actually that good" argument a lot.

Sorry but that is bollocks.

That is so very Aston Villa under Gerrard bullshit. Blaming the players' abilities.

 

I'm sure the players are overhyped a little, just as any national squad is overhyped by their own media.
But this squad is excellent. Yes it's top heavy and the defence aren't as good as the midfield and attack, but players like Kane, Bellingham, Rice, Saka, Foden, Stones, Walker are either world class or close to it. And that's not even mentioning players like Gordon, Palmer, Watkins etc who are excellent support to those bigger names.

 

The squad is a semi final squad minimum. And we look absolutely miles from that at the moment. And that's down to the manager

[Wurzel]

For me it is a simple fix. Drop TAA, move Bellingham back into the 8 position, Foden in the centre 10 position, Gordon on the left. Simple stuff. Then with the team balanced all they have to do is apply themselves professionally.

[PieFacE]

Just now, Wurzel said:

For me it is a simple fix. Drop TAA, move Bellingham back into the 8 position, Foden in the centre 10 position, Gordon on the left. Simple stuff. Then with the team balanced all they have to do is apply themselves professionally.

Far too sensible for Southgate to do. 

[Wainy316]

Why do England lineups get revealed/leaked so early?

[foreveryoung]

3 hours ago, Wainy316 said:

Why do England lineups get revealed/leaked so early?

I've always wondered this. It shouldn't happen, an is a bit of a failing to be honest. Being that the opposing team alway know the squad, an may have time for adjustments. 

[Wurzel]

 

[Wurzel]

 

[ml1dch]

3 hours ago, Wurzel said:

For me it is a simple fix. Drop TAA, move Bellingham back into the 8 position, Foden in the centre 10 position, Gordon on the left. Simple stuff. Then with the team balanced all they have to do is apply themselves professionally.

With respect, it might be simple but it's not correct. It's the Lambert vs Bradford fallacy of "more attackers = better attacking".

The actual simple fix is Rice. For Arsenal Rice collects the ball from a defender and carries it 15-20 yards up the pitch, in the knowledge that he has Jorginho or Partey behind him to cover him. For England, he collects the ball, knows that there is nothing behind him to cover in the event of him losing the ball, so passes it across or back, while waiting for Foden, Bellingham and Kane to run back towards to him to allow him to pass it forward, but short. But now the whole England team is in the middle third of the pitch because everyone has run backwards looking for the ball. 

So you need to replace Alexander-Arnold with Wharton, Wharton's job is in front of the defence which means Rice picks up the ball and now carries it forward rather than passing it backwards. That means that he's taking the ball to Bellingham / Kane / Saka / whoever is on the left who are now in the opponent's third of the pitch rather than them coming back to the half-way line to collect the ball from Rice. 

The game now takes place in the attacking third of the pitch rather than endless passing around the middle third. 

Sticking Bellingham next to Rice doesn't fix the problem, it just causes another Lampard and Gerrard situation where neither has an actual role. 

To break it down to a neat sentence - letting Rice be more attacking will give a better result than forcing Bellingham to do more defending. 

Edited June 25 by ml1dch

[Wurzel]

Well I beg to disagree. For a start we should not be playing two defensive midfielders in the first place. Rice is more than enough cover for the defence as the defensive midfielder.. Bellingham & Foden can then be the engine room of the midfield linking the forward line. Kane would then not need to come so deep to get involved, and therefore the game is taking place in the attacking third of the pitch.

Edited June 25 by Wurzel

[Stevo985]

28 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

With respect, it might be simple but it's not correct. It's the Lambert vs Bradford fallacy of "more attackers = better attacking".

The actual simple fix is Rice. For Arsenal Rice collects the ball from a defender and carries it 15-20 yards up the pitch, in the knowledge that he has Jorginho or Partey behind him to cover him. For England, he collects the ball, knows that there is nothing behind him to cover in the event of him losing the ball, so passes it across or back, while waiting for Foden, Bellingham and Kane to run back towards to him to allow him to pass it forward, but short. But now the whole England team is in the middle third of the pitch because everyone has run backwards looking for the ball. 

So you need to replace Alexander-Arnold with Wharton, Wharton's job is in front of the defence which means Rice picks up the ball and now carries it forward rather than passing it backwards. That means that he's taking the ball to Bellingham / Kane / Saka / whoever is on the left who are now in the opponent's third of the pitch rather than them coming back to the half-way line to collect the ball from Rice. 

The game now takes place in the attacking third of the pitch rather than endless passing around the middle third. 

Sticking Bellingham next to Rice doesn't fix the problem, it just causes another Lampard and Gerrard situation where neither has an actual role. 

To break it down to a neat sentence - letting Rice be more attacking will give a better result than forcing Bellingham to do more defending. 

I agree. I think the best fix would be Mainoo or Wharton in for Trent. This allows Rice to operate further up the pitch like he does for Arsenal.

However I don't think there's any chance Southgate will do that, so the Rice-Bellingham with Foden in front lineup is an ok alternative and one he's more likely to employ, imo

[ml1dch]

41 minutes ago, Wurzel said:

For a start we should not be playing two defensive midfielders in the first place. Rice is more than enough cover for the defence as the defensive midfielder.. 

Well, that's the point. He doesn't play for Arsenal as a defensive midfielder, he plays as a box-to-box midfielder. And was one of the best players in the league last doing so. So let him do box-to-box stuff and put a defensive midfielder there, meaning he can do box-to-box stuff rather than asking yet another player to do a different job to the one that they are really good at. 

As for "should not be playing two defensive midfielders in the first place", Germany played all of Kroos, Andrich and Gundogan in midfield against Scotland. It doesn't mean Germany were scared of Scotland or that they were really defensive in their completely dominant 5-1 victory. It just allows a team to control the game. Which you might have noticed, is the thing that England aren't very good at at the moment. 

Are there any international teams that have done well while playing with only one defensive midfielder? Especially teams whose massive problem is a weak, cobbled-together defence and mid-ranking goalkeeper? France won the World Cup playing all of Pogba, Kante and Matuidi. Italy started with all of Barella, Verratti and Jorginho in 2021. In the final in Qatar Argentina played all of MacAllister, De Paul and Enzo Fernandez, then after an hour brought on Marcos Acuna for one of their attackers. 

England are the anomoly by using two rather than three. 

Edited June 25 by ml1dch

[Wainy316]

Yep I actually think it might be Bellingham and Foden that produce the Lampard/Gerrard problem.

[Wurzel]

32 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Well, that's the point. He doesn't play for Arsenal as a defensive midfielder, he plays as a box-to-box midfielder. And was one of the best players in the league last doing so. So let him do box-to-box stuff and put a defensive midfielder there, meaning he can do box-to-box stuff rather than asking yet another player to do a different job to the one that they are really good at. 

As for "should not be playing two defensive midfielders in the first place", Germany played all of Kroos, Andrich and Gundogan in midfield against Scotland. It doesn't mean Germany were scared of Scotland or that they were really defensive in their completely dominant 5-1 victory. It just allows a team to control the game. Which you might have noticed, is the thing that England aren't very good at at the moment. 

Are there any international teams that have done well while playing with only one defensive midfielder? Especially teams whose massive problem is a weak, cobbled-together defence and mid-ranking goalkeeper? France won the World Cup playing all of Pogba, Kante and Matuidi. Italy started with all of Barella, Verratti and Jorginho in 2021. In the final in Qatar Argentina played all of MacAllister, De Paul and Enzo Fernandez, then after an hour brought on Marcos Acuna for one of their attackers. 

England are the anomoly by using two rather than three. 

Fair points, I would say that Bellingham Rice and Foden are more than capable of working together in an England midfield. The problem with the first two games was the fact the team as a whole played their football 15 yards nearer the England goal after scoring. I don't know if this was an instruction from the manager or some kind of group think that they could sit back, but as soon as the pressure came on and then mistakes happened then confidence drained away. They need to be collectively braver in and out of possession and take it to the opposition, something teams with far less talent than England have been doing all tournament. Adding Gordon would give more balance on the left, and allow Foden to operate in a more natural role for him. Also having both Saka and Gordon attacking the wings would stretch the play and be a big threat to any opposition. As you say the defence is not the best, and by weakening the attack to bolster up defensively just adds pressure on the defence while weakening the teams attacking advantage. Anyway we will see what Southgate decides. He is a cautious man, so I am not expecting miracles, but there is no reason that this England cannot play a more attacking game and be successful whoever is selected.

[Jareth]

Southgate gets months between competitive games, yet gets to this tournament almost completely unprepared with any particular plan for any particular set of players. Emery gets Southgate's yearly workload done in a month. Man I feel sorry for whoever inevitably gets GS as their next club manager.  

[ml1dch]

51 minutes ago, Wurzel said:

Fair points, I would say that Bellingham Rice and Foden are more than capable of working together in an England midfield. The problem with the first two games was the fact the team as a whole played their football 15 yards nearer the England goal after scoring. I don't know if this was an instruction from the manager or some kind of group think that they could sit back, but as soon as the pressure came on and then mistakes happened then confidence drained away. They need to be collectively braver in and out of possession and take it to the opposition, something teams with far less talent than England have been doing all tournament. Adding Gordon would give more balance on the left, and allow Foden to operate in a more natural role for him. Also having both Saka and Gordon attacking the wings would stretch the play and be a big threat to any opposition. As you say the defence is not the best, and by weakening the attack to bolster up defensively just adds pressure on the defence while weakening the teams attacking advantage. Anyway we will see what Southgate decides. He is a cautious man, so I am not expecting miracles, but there is no reason that this England cannot play a more attacking game and be successful whoever is selected.

But as per my original post, it's not right to just assume "more attacking players = a more attacking game". Our best, most fluid, most exciting attacking performances last season by a mile were using a front four of Watkins, Bailey, McGinn and Tielemans. 

Watkins, Bailey, Diaby and Duran might sound more attacking on a team sheet, but it isn't when they're actually playing. And it's the same thing here. 

[BOF]

Tonight's line-up will tell us a lot.

[Wurzel]

15 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

But as per my original post, it's not right to just assume "more attacking players = a more attacking game". Our best, most fluid, most exciting attacking performances last season by a mile were using a front four of Watkins, Bailey, McGinn and Tielemans. 

Watkins, Bailey, Diaby and Duran might sound more attacking on a team sheet, but it isn't when they're actually playing. And it's the same thing here. 

I wouldn't say I was suggesting an overtly attacking team, as I said it is more balanced.