Future Club Crest & Brand Identity

[Muller Yogurt Long Sleever]

10 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Can't agree mate, I'd suggest you are more thinking with your heart over you design " head "  as you're pissed off about it all.

Even just glancing at them, the Lerner badge is definitely.more shite and less defined.

The dropshadow ( yes I know ) at least defines the yellow lion a little more on the background.

This is not me saying it's great by any means either.

Absolutely not the case my friend - there's always an instinctive emotional reaction but it's a considered opinion. I'd probably take the new lion which has more definition, but to me the 'new' badge just fundamentally doesn't balance and the drop shadow does not save things. I think it's fixable but not having it as it is! Lerner elements sit more comfortably to my eyes (not that old Randy made it.) But we don't have to agree, it would be a weird world if we all did!

Edited January 7 by Muller Yogurt Long Sleever

[479Villan]

20 minutes ago, Muller Yogurt Long Sleever said:

Working in design and as a Villa fan, the brand identity means a huge amount and it would be a privilege to work on it. That’s why a lot of us can’t (and rightly won’t) let it lie. So a rant, albeit hopefully a constructive one.

Looking back on the last two goes at it:

The previous 2015/2016 version - by a top tier design agency with football club creds, almost certainly working with limitations of an evolution brief, with fan input. Not sure why the colours weren’t sorted, and the ‘Lerner’ crest certainly wasn’t universally liked; but the full lion was beautifully crafted (not so good in 2D), there was a bespoke font and iconography with claw marks and as a coherent body of work, it mostly worked. Elegant, heritage-based, but modern.

Last year’s version - by a top tier design agency with football club creds, I assume working with a more open-minded brief but with fan feedback about elements, which would seem to have limited their thinking and scope somewhat. A well-drawn 2D lion, nicely crafted typeface, presented in two shape options. Fan vote was round badge - and overall it’s well-executed and works. Classic but modern. (Despite me thinking a circle isn’t right for us, but that’s just opinion.)

Both would’ve come at considerable cost (although probably half of Lucas Digne’s weekly wage. Player budget vs marking budget are in different galaxies though.) 

But now we’re apparently being presented with something that isn’t fit for purpose nor befitting the prestige it deserves.

People joke about it being made in Microsoft Paint but the crest we’re seeing, if real, is fundamentally unprofessional - cobbled together with elements from the last two efforts within a new crest shape. Arranged awkwardly and trying to solve the colour issue with a chunky drop shadow. If it’s a cost cutting exercise, there’s a good chance it was done in-house or by a cheaper-option contact, as has been suggested. (That’s not a slur on any design resource at the club, I don’t know them, their level, nor their brief; nor indeed if this is what’s happened. Nor do I know Mr.Heck, who has presumably directed and approved the alleged result. Just speculating due to the below-par execution.)

All I can say is if what we’re seeing is true, it’s frustratingly not good enough. 

Despite my preference to not have a round badge, I’d take it all day long over what we’re apparently getting. It’ll be very interesting to see if there’s a wider set of assets released alongside the alleged new crest, such as the font and any other bits from this year’s agency effort. It may slightly rescue things.

I’ve always thought the best way to do these very challenging projects is to allow a good agency to run the process, of gleaning a decent amount of fan feedback and insight to develop a solution. But from being involved in this forum, I think there’s a clear case for designer fans with the knowledge, insight and talent to collaborate on such things (as has been suggested). There are clearly people on here (doing some lovely things purely as a passion project. How cost-friendly is that?! Bound to be the same at other clubs.

-

AAANNNND ANOTHER THING - apart from the overall quality of design, something that really grinds my gears is that with a brand refresh coming at the same time as the 150 year anniversary, it was an opportunity to incorporate it in a new visual identity, then proudly move forward with our shiny new look. Yes the 150 is a temporary one-off, but the fact that it seemingly has no correlation whatsoever with the badge stylistically feels wrong (aside from it also being fairly illegible). 

-

I had high hopes for Mr.Heck and have to admit I was glad things were going back to the drawing board - but again, that’s personal opinion about the brand, and a separate conversation. There was a coincidental crossover of people at the helm (Purslow-Heck), and I wanted to trust that we had someone who’d steer it in a more innovative, ownable direction whilst respecting fans and history, as much as it wasn’t a great look to change course. On the evidence so far, this is not the case. 

I hate being negative and don’t want to sound preachy, but it’s born out of passion and therefore frustrating. It’s mostly opinions, but they come from a decent amount of knowledge and experience. Our identity is for us to own and love, and how we present ourselves to the world. Any re-brand, re-fresh, logo change or whatever, at least needs a sound reason as well as being well executed. Not everyone will love the outcome, but at least have those. Where we allegedly are would seem to cancel any reason because it now looks like change for change’s sake, as well as being poorly made.

So despite the messy process it has been, I’d rather go again and achieve something befitting of our great club. Right now it’s either have something crap which was the result of a less than ideal process, and will be largely disliked moving forward (on the evidence I’ve seen) and probably result in having to do it again sooner rather than later; vs. have something that the majority think looks great and lasts for decades, with the crap process becoming a historical footnote.

(Or simply leave it at what you invested in last year.)

Full judgement reserved until when things are officially released. This may well have been another pointless outburst. But on the off-chance the club are reading through this stuff - please let us help you fix it. The reactions are because this really matters.

Hey we played a game of football today didn’t we?  

Thank you for a reasonable critique that doesn’t accuse the crest of war crimes. Well thought out and stated. 

[479Villan]

Double post

Edited January 7 by 479Villan

[maqroll]

39 minutes ago, Muller Yogurt Long Sleever said:

Working in design and as a Villa fan, the brand identity means a huge amount and it would be a privilege to work on it. That’s why a lot of us can’t (and rightly won’t) let it lie. So a rant, albeit hopefully a constructive one.

Looking back on the last two goes at it:

The previous 2015/2016 version - by a top tier design agency with football club creds, almost certainly working with limitations of an evolution brief, with fan input. Not sure why the colours weren’t sorted, and the ‘Lerner’ crest certainly wasn’t universally liked; but the full lion was beautifully crafted (not so good in 2D), there was a bespoke font and iconography with claw marks and as a coherent body of work, it mostly worked. Elegant, heritage-based, but modern.

Last year’s version - by a top tier design agency with football club creds, I assume working with a more open-minded brief but with fan feedback about elements, which would seem to have limited their thinking and scope somewhat. A well-drawn 2D lion, nicely crafted typeface, presented in two shape options. Fan vote was round badge - and overall it’s well-executed and works. Classic but modern. (Despite me thinking a circle isn’t right for us, but that’s just opinion.)

Both would’ve come at considerable cost (although probably half of Lucas Digne’s weekly wage. Player budget vs marking budget are in different galaxies though.) 

But now we’re apparently being presented with something that isn’t fit for purpose nor befitting the prestige it deserves.

People joke about it being made in Microsoft Paint but the crest we’re seeing, if real, is fundamentally unprofessional - cobbled together with elements from the last two efforts within a new crest shape. Arranged awkwardly and trying to solve the colour issue with a chunky drop shadow. If it’s a cost cutting exercise, there’s a good chance it was done in-house or by a cheaper-option contact, as has been suggested. (That’s not a slur on any design resource at the club, I don’t know them, their level, nor their brief; nor indeed if this is what’s happened. Nor do I know Mr.Heck, who has presumably directed and approved the alleged result. Just speculating due to the below-par execution.)

All I can say is if what we’re seeing is true, it’s frustratingly not good enough. 

Despite my preference to not have a round badge, I’d take it all day long over what we’re apparently getting. It’ll be very interesting to see if there’s a wider set of assets released alongside the alleged new crest, such as the font and any other bits from this year’s agency effort. It may slightly rescue things.

I’ve always thought the best way to do these very challenging projects is to allow a good agency to run the process, of gleaning a decent amount of fan feedback and insight to develop a solution. But from being involved in this forum, I think there’s a clear case for designer fans with the knowledge, insight and talent to collaborate on such things (as has been suggested). There are clearly people on here (doing some lovely things purely as a passion project. How cost-friendly is that?! Bound to be the same at other clubs.

-

AAANNNND ANOTHER THING - apart from the overall quality of design, something that really grinds my gears is that with a brand refresh coming at the same time as the 150 year anniversary, it was an opportunity to incorporate it in a new visual identity, then proudly move forward with our shiny new look. Yes the 150 is a temporary one-off, but the fact that it seemingly has no correlation whatsoever with the badge stylistically feels wrong (aside from it also being fairly illegible). 

-

I had high hopes for Mr.Heck and have to admit I was glad things were going back to the drawing board - but again, that’s personal opinion about the brand, and a separate conversation. There was a coincidental crossover of people at the helm (Purslow-Heck), and I wanted to trust that we had someone who’d steer it in a more innovative, ownable direction whilst respecting fans and history, as much as it wasn’t a great look to change course. On the evidence so far, this is not the case. 

I hate being negative and don’t want to sound preachy, but it’s born out of passion and therefore frustrating. It’s mostly opinions, but they come from a decent amount of knowledge and experience. Our identity is for us to own and love, and how we present ourselves to the world. Any re-brand, re-fresh, logo change or whatever, at least needs a sound reason as well as being well executed. Not everyone will love the outcome, but at least have those. Where we allegedly are would seem to cancel any reason because it now looks like change for change’s sake, as well as being poorly made.

So despite the messy process it has been, I’d rather go again and achieve something befitting of our great club. Right now it’s either have something crap which was the result of a less than ideal process, and will be largely disliked moving forward (on the evidence I’ve seen) and probably result in having to do it again sooner rather than later; vs. have something that the majority think looks great and lasts for decades, with the crap process becoming a historical footnote.

(Or simply leave it at what you invested in last year.)

Full judgement reserved until when things are officially released. This may well have been another pointless outburst. But on the off-chance the club are reading through this stuff - please let us help you fix it. The reactions are because this really matters.

Hey we played a game of football today didn’t we?  

Excellent post, and I have to say "Muller Yogurt Long Sleever" might just be the best handle on Villa Talk. 

[maqroll]

11 hours ago, mikeyjavfc said:

The use of the Lerner lion when they have a new superior lion already designed is a clear cost saving Measure. No need to change the standalone Lerner lions that exist around the ground and on our merch now.

Yes, it's quite likely this. And to be fair to Heck, who is presently facing a brewing storm of hostility, his fundamental remit with Villa is to work every angle he can to save and pump more cash into the club's coffers. If people are displeased with Heck so far, and I'm one of them, perhaps more scrutiny should fall upon Wes Edens, who is apparently the one who pushed for the hire, and Sawiris, who signed off on it.

If the owners are willing to let the new commercial guy blow up the new badge that supporters just voted for, only to be replaced by the previous **** badge, what else will they let this guy get away with? It's the badge that represents our lowest point in decades. And we want to return to that image? 

If the club values a cohesive and coherent "brand identity" as an important initiative as Villa reasserts itself on the world stage, then the last few months have been an abject failure in that regard, and because it's happening in conjunction with the positive and exciting results on the pitch, it makes it all the more frustrating, and a reminder of embarrassing episodes we've had to endure with incompetent regimes in the past.

From a marketing perspective, this badge calamity is making Villa look like rank amateurs.

Edit: And then there's the whole stadium redevelopment reversal. Really flimsy stuff from the owners.

 

Edited January 7 by maqroll

[Jas10]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Can't agree mate, I'd suggest you are more thinking with your heart over you design " head "  as you're pissed off about it all.

Even just glancing at them, the Lerner badge is definitely.more shite and less defined.

The dropshadow ( yes I know ) at least defines the yellow lion a little more on the background.

This is not me saying it's great by any means either.

The monochrome versions however, are debatable.

[Jas10]

1 hour ago, Muller Yogurt Long Sleever said:

Working in design and as a Villa fan, the brand identity means a huge amount and it would be a privilege to work on it. That’s why a lot of us can’t (and rightly won’t) let it lie. So a rant, albeit hopefully a constructive one.

Looking back on the last two goes at it:

The previous 2015/2016 version - by a top tier design agency with football club creds, almost certainly working with limitations of an evolution brief, with fan input. Not sure why the colours weren’t sorted, and the ‘Lerner’ crest certainly wasn’t universally liked; but the full lion was beautifully crafted (not so good in 2D), there was a bespoke font and iconography with claw marks and as a coherent body of work, it mostly worked. Elegant, heritage-based, but modern.

Last year’s version - by a top tier design agency with football club creds, I assume working with a more open-minded brief but with fan feedback about elements, which would seem to have limited their thinking and scope somewhat. A well-drawn 2D lion, nicely crafted typeface, presented in two shape options. Fan vote was round badge - and overall it’s well-executed and works. Classic but modern. (Despite me thinking a circle isn’t right for us, but that’s just opinion.)

Both would’ve come at considerable cost (although probably half of Lucas Digne’s weekly wage. Player budget vs marking budget are in different galaxies though.) 

But now we’re apparently being presented with something that isn’t fit for purpose nor befitting the prestige it deserves.

People joke about it being made in Microsoft Paint but the crest we’re seeing, if real, is fundamentally unprofessional - cobbled together with elements from the last two efforts within a new crest shape. Arranged awkwardly and trying to solve the colour issue with a chunky drop shadow. If it’s a cost cutting exercise, there’s a good chance it was done in-house or by a cheaper-option contact, as has been suggested. (That’s not a slur on any design resource at the club, I don’t know them, their level, nor their brief; nor indeed if this is what’s happened. Nor do I know Mr.Heck, who has presumably directed and approved the alleged result. Just speculating due to the below-par execution.)

All I can say is if what we’re seeing is true, it’s frustratingly not good enough. 

Despite my preference to not have a round badge, I’d take it all day long over what we’re apparently getting. It’ll be very interesting to see if there’s a wider set of assets released alongside the alleged new crest, such as the font and any other bits from this year’s agency effort. It may slightly rescue things.

I’ve always thought the best way to do these very challenging projects is to allow a good agency to run the process, of gleaning a decent amount of fan feedback and insight to develop a solution. But from being involved in this forum, I think there’s a clear case for designer fans with the knowledge, insight and talent to collaborate on such things (as has been suggested). There are clearly people on here (doing some lovely things purely as a passion project. How cost-friendly is that?! Bound to be the same at other clubs.

-

AAANNNND ANOTHER THING - apart from the overall quality of design, something that really grinds my gears is that with a brand refresh coming at the same time as the 150 year anniversary, it was an opportunity to incorporate it in a new visual identity, then proudly move forward with our shiny new look. Yes the 150 is a temporary one-off, but the fact that it seemingly has no correlation whatsoever with the badge stylistically feels wrong (aside from it also being fairly illegible). 

-

I had high hopes for Mr.Heck and have to admit I was glad things were going back to the drawing board - but again, that’s personal opinion about the brand, and a separate conversation. There was a coincidental crossover of people at the helm (Purslow-Heck), and I wanted to trust that we had someone who’d steer it in a more innovative, ownable direction whilst respecting fans and history, as much as it wasn’t a great look to change course. On the evidence so far, this is not the case. 

I hate being negative and don’t want to sound preachy, but it’s born out of passion and therefore frustrating. It’s mostly opinions, but they come from a decent amount of knowledge and experience. Our identity is for us to own and love, and how we present ourselves to the world. Any re-brand, re-fresh, logo change or whatever, at least needs a sound reason as well as being well executed. Not everyone will love the outcome, but at least have those. Where we allegedly are would seem to cancel any reason because it now looks like change for change’s sake, as well as being poorly made.

So despite the messy process it has been, I’d rather go again and achieve something befitting of our great club. Right now it’s either have something crap which was the result of a less than ideal process, and will be largely disliked moving forward (on the evidence I’ve seen) and probably result in having to do it again sooner rather than later; vs. have something that the majority think looks great and lasts for decades, with the crap process becoming a historical footnote.

(Or simply leave it at what you invested in last year.)

Full judgement reserved until when things are officially released. This may well have been another pointless outburst. But on the off-chance the club are reading through this stuff - please let us help you fix it. The reactions are because this really matters.

Hey we played a game of football today didn’t we?  

Wow, so well summed up.

You pointed out another upsetting factor…

if this pointless redesign is the badge we are getting and having for our 150th anniversary and going forwards… it’s even worse. What a huge let down… terrible decision and timing… the round badge would be way, way more apt… (or keep it for another season at least maybe) and I was never its biggest proponent anyway but it is growing on me now if this is the alternative! Just turn the lion round!

I am still in shock that this is what has been produced… I never expected anything as weak, lazy and poor as this… I’m astounded. It’s hugely disappointing…

It is the badge… the Villa Trust have just commented on it and explained how much they were left out of the loop on this (posted link and comments a few pages back)…

What a joke this is…

[Jas10]

1 hour ago, Muller Yogurt Long Sleever said:

Absolutely not the case my friend - there's always an instinctive emotional reaction but it's a considered opinion. I'd probably take the new lion which has more definition, but to me the 'new' badge just fundamentally doesn't balance and the drop shadow does not save things. I think it's fixable but not having it as it is! Lerner elements sit more comfortably to my eyes (not that old Randy made it.) But we don't have to agree, it would be a weird world if we all did!

[Philosopher]

2 hours ago, maqroll said:

I'm inclined to agree with the first sentence. Not sure if you can say his decisions are "very American" unless you think arrogance and poor judgment are uniquely American. Your last sentence is not accurate. Baseball and gridiron were both first played mid 19th century. Ice hockey since early 20th, and basketball mid century. If any country's sporting history rivals Britain, it is the U.S. 

Baseball is based on English bat a ball games. Cricket proceeds baseball. But yeah I was wrong there. Thanks to those who rightly corrected me. I'm just really pissed with this badge.

[Jas10]

How many clubs… have a badge… that doesn’t include the club colours? 
We don’t and have never worn light blue and yellow kits… anyone that has never heard or known of us would think that those were our colours!!

The new badge has even less claret (which is way too dark and could be mistaken for black from a distance) than the original that has been altered… and white?? Why a stupid, thick, white line in the border? And white text? 1874 bunged in there? White on light blue? Genius…

And a cheap and abysmal drop shadow? Embarassing…

I don’t understand how anyone could see it as superior to the original version which has same/similar issues but certainly less and is better than this abomination… at least there was a vibrant claret border and large claret lettering (even if it was AVFC and not the full name)…

We are the original and best claret and blue club… but our badge does not even represent that… 

CLARET… and BLUE

Othe clubs have taken and owned those colours instead… in terms of the badge…

During our most successful time, winning the European Cup and league title, we wore vibrant claret and blue shirts and our badge included vibrant shades of claret, blue and gold…

What went wrong???

 

[Jas10]

Why did the club lose and foresake these elements?

What were Ellis and Lerner(strayed the furthest)’s issues with any of it? Why change so drastically (and so many times)?

And why does the club refuse to go for/back to anything similar and actually stick with it?

Edited January 7 by Jas10

[DakotaVilla]

1 hour ago, maqroll said:

Yes, it's quite likely this. And to be fair to Heck, who is presently facing a brewing storm of hostility, his fundamental remit with Villa is to work every angle he can to save and pump more cash into the club's coffers. If people are displeased with Heck so far, and I'm one of them, perhaps more scrutiny should fall upon Wes Edens, who is apparently the one who pushed for the hire, and Sawiris, who signed off on it.

If the owners are willing to let the new commercial guy blow up the new badge that supporters just voted for, only to be replaced by the previous **** badge, what else will they let this guy get away with? It's the badge that represents our lowest point in decades. And we want to return to that image? Outrageous.

If the club values a cohesive and coherent "brand identity" as an important initiative as Villa reasserts itself on the world stage, then the last few months have been an abject failure in that regard, and because it's happening in conjunction with the positive and exciting results on the pitch, it makes it all the more frustrating, and a reminder of embarrassing episodes we've had to endure with incompetent regimes in the past.

From a marketing perspective, this badge calamity is making Villa look like rank amateurs.

Edit: And then there's the whole stadium redevelopment reversal. Really flimsy stuff from the owners.

 

There is zero evidence. Absolutely zero to suggest that this crest was limited due to lack of investment or by cost cutting measures. This quite frankly is pocket change to Wes and Nas who are trying to build a global club network. The last thing they would do is turn around to Heck - apparently the best sports branding exec in the world according to some  - and say do it on the cheap by copying the disliked Lerner badge (a fact well known within the Villa community) in our 150th anniversary year. 

People are for some reason are desperately trying to explain away Heck’s sheer incompetence. 

[Jas10]

3 minutes ago, DakotaVilla said:

There is zero evidence. Absolutely zero to suggest that this crest was limited due to lack of investment or by cost cutting measures. This quite frankly is pocket change to Wes and Nas who are trying to build a global club network. The last thing they would do is turn around to Heck - apparently the best sports branding exec in the world according to some  - and say do it on the cheap by copying the disliked Lerner badge (a fact well known within the Villa community) in our 150th anniversary year. 

People are for some reason are desperately trying to explain away Heck’s sheer incompetence. 

Yep.

Why were NSWE ok with the round badge or allowed it to happen?

It wasn’t until Heck arrived that it was cancelled, as well as the North Stand plans, and this pathetic design was created…

The impression I’m getting of Heck now is LAZY… because that’s exactly what this excuse for a redesign is…

[Teale's 'tache]

5 hours ago, DakotaVilla said:

There is zero evidence. Absolutely zero to suggest that this crest was limited due to lack of investment or by cost cutting measures. This quite frankly is pocket change to Wes and Nas who are trying to build a global club network. The last thing they would do is turn around to Heck - apparently the best sports branding exec in the world according to some  - and say do it on the cheap by copying the disliked Lerner badge (a fact well known within the Villa community) in our 150th anniversary year. 

People are for some reason are desperately trying to explain away Heck’s sheer incompetence. 

I'm using the evidence of my eyes and engaging a bit of logic.

The lion, star and colours are intentionally the same so they don't have to change every single part of branding and marketing materials.

A brand evolution is cheaper to roll out than a complete rebrand, and this is a brand evolution.

A brand evolution can be a good thing in some cases.

An example:

Imagine for a moment that we have paper sheets we use at the ground to wrap the hot dogs/burgers/pies etc. in, and that paper has a pattern of the Lerner crest on it. Now consider how many of those we might have in stock, 100k? 250k to last a season maybe? Possibly we bought millions a couple of years back thinking the crest wouldn't change for a long time. With a complete rebrand, all that stock goes in the bin, but with an evolution, you can keep using these paper sheets until they run out as the two crests are similar enough to be part of the same brand. 

Now take that example and apply it to thousands of other lines we have in place and you can see how the cost is less up front and spreads out as the old badge is phased out over several years. They'll likely change the crest in places where it is most visible straight away, but we'll still be seeing the Lerner crest for a few years.

So it can be a good cost-saving exercise and is also better environmentally as there is less waste. However, the fundamental problem in this instance is that our brand is crap to begin with, and has a glaring flaw in the colour scheme that a brand evolution cannot correct. At some point, it needs fixing, for whatever reason the decision has been made that it won't be now.

Why the club has taken this route I don't know, I don't know enough about the financial side of the club to speculate, I doubt we'll get a straight answer out of Mr Heck and I doubt they'll come out and sell it as the cheaper option.

Heck may well be incompetent, but the crest we are getting is the result of a business decision.

 

[Captain_Townsend]

Why then did they start the process of changing the crest? Someone quoted the rationale above and it was pretty clear they intended getting away from the Lerner effort. Seems odd to cancel 2 years later and, as with thr North Stand, extensive planning was only thrown out the window when Heck arrived.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

8 hours ago, Jas10 said:

I feel like I'm betraying you @Jas10 .

I'm just trying to look from all angles though. Lol

[Hobsons Choice]

Does anyone think we'll have a vote on the new v current designs?

Might Wes and Nassef insist we have one if they become aware of the depth of feeling on this? 

I think we know which one would win. And then who would end up with a massive bollocking.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

10 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

Does anyone think we'll have a vote on the new v current designs?

Might Wes and Nassef insist we have one if they become aware of the depth of feeling on this? 

I think we know which one would win. And then who would end up with a massive bollocking.

Was just thinking if they would step in to express concerns, and suggest a different route.

They'd be better off presenting more options and/or making tweaks.

As many have pointed out there are some extremely easy fixes which could make things better.

[sne]

Don't think we'll have a vote and don't think we should have a vote about it. Another fan vote would likely lead to some Homer Simpson car looking thing that tries to please everyone or something that peeves half the fans off. The new badge isn't really for us long time fans anyway.

Sorry as it appears to be the Heck/Lerner badge is what we'll roll with.. I fully expect us to be in this exact situation again in a couple years thou as it won't be a badge that sticks around for long. Just like I expect Heck wont. Things off the pitch comes off as shambolic, even more so since the communication from the club is on a need to know basis and us fans/customers don't need to know apparently.

[Captain_Townsend]

8 hours ago, Jas10 said:

Why did the club lose and foresake these elements?

What were Ellis and Lerner(strayed the furthest)’s issues with any of it? Why change so drastically (and so many times)?

And why does the club refuse to go for/back to anything similar and actually stick with it?

That should be the aim