Pau Torres

[peterw]

One game when the first choices didn't play? I haven't checked the stats but since he joined Villa how many caps has he won? Also, tell me a central defender at Liverpool, Arsenal, or Man City that you think Torres is better than?

[mikeyp102]

43 minutes ago, peterw said:

Neither Torres or Carlos are good enough for the levels we achieved last season, 

Torres was absolutely vital in getting us that position last year. 

[thunderball]

1 hour ago, ozvillafan said:

I agree - but the point I'm making is that the current passing levels Pau is producing is no better than Mings. Everything else is a trade off.

We can't be shipping 2 goals a game because Pau has the occasional good pass in him.

To blame the defensive performance of our team on one player is just plain wrong. 

One thing I would bet my house on: Emery wont be dropping Pau for Mings. They might play together, or occasionally in rotation but Pau would be one of the first names on Unai’s team sheet every game.

[Leeroy]

36 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

This just isn't true. He'd be easily good enough for anyone in and around our position, Chelsea, Spurs, Brighton for a start and would more than likely be even better in a Liverpool, Arsenal or City team whereby he's not expected to do as much. The fact he's a Spanish international with 24 caps dictates he's a top defender. 

He very rarely makes an appearance for Spain these days. Missed out on their Euro winning squad completely and was recently called up and didn’t even get on the pitch. Presumably they realise he isn’t reliable defensively because he isn’t. 
 

He’d start for Brighton. Doubtful he’d start for Spurs over Van der Ven or Chelsea over Colwill. Definitely wouldn’t start for Arsenal, Liverpool or City.

 

He’s a very talented footballer but I was expecting a lot more defensively when we signed him and those deficiencies are the reason a very top side didn’t sign him.

Edited Monday at 12:49 by Leeroy

[Daveburnside]

Our most important player. Come at me 

[PaulC]

Hes had several partners since hes been here. Carlos is so poor at the moment its hard to judge Pau. He's key to the way we play and results are a lot better with him in the team however we do need to stop conceding so many goals 

[avfc1982am]

23 minutes ago, Leeroy said:

He very rarely makes an appearance for Spain these days. Missed out on their Euro winning squad completely and was recently called up and didn’t even get on the pitch. Presumably they realise he isn’t reliable defensively because he isn’t. 
 

He’d start for Brighton. Doubtful he’d start for Spurs over Van der Ven or Chelsea over Colwill. Definitely wouldn’t start for Arsenal, Liverpool or City.

 

He’s a very talented footballer but I was expecting a lot more defensively when we signed him and those deficiencies are the reason a very top side didn’t sign him.

Just because he wouldn't possibly get in front of certain players does not indicate he isn't a top defender, or couldn't fit into those sides. Van der Ven got a maximum of 66 mins throughout the Euro tournament and Colwill didn't make the Euro squad because of similar circumstances. Similar with Torres not making the Spanish Euro squad who incidentally won the tournament at a canter. Just because he didn't make the squad doesn't indicate he's not good enough to play at a top side, it just means others were preferred at the time. The fact that he's still making the squad post Euro's indicate he's a top player. 

At the end of the day his "deficiencies" or the fact he's being exposed at times are not the only reason we look defensively poor. Konsa gets shifted around because the RB position was not resolved, Digne isn't the best defensively and you're also forgetting that his responsibility in the system we play is to cover and progress the ball through the midfield. He's being asked to do more than just defend. 

You're also forgetting that currently Aston Villa are classed as a top side. So I'd argue he's already at a top side.

[Leeroy]

8 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

Just because he wouldn't possibly get in front of certain players does not indicate he isn't a top defender, or couldn't fit into those sides. Van der Ven got a maximum of 66 mins throughout the Euro tournament and Colwill didn't make the Euro squad because of similar circumstances. Similar with Torres not making the Spanish Euro squad who incidentally won the tournament at a canter. Just because he didn't make the squad doesn't indicate he's not good enough to play at a top side, it just means others were preferred at the time. The fact that he's still making the squad post Euro's indicate he's a top player. 

At the end of the day his "deficiencies" or the fact he's being exposed at times are not the only reason we look defensively poor. Konsa gets shifted around because the RB position was not resolved, Digne isn't the best defensively and you're also forgetting that his responsibility in the system we play is to cover and progress the ball through the midfield. He's being asked to do more than just defend. 

You're also forgetting that currently Aston Villa are classed as a top side. So I'd argue he's already at a top side.

Fair points made. I would say that Colwill didn’t go with England because he had an injury towards the end of last season, but he’s also a lot younger than Torres as is Van der Ven. At 27 I’d expect Torres to be able to defend better than he does, regardless of what he adds on the ball.

 

Torres isn’t a bad player at all, he’s good enough for a team chasing a European spot which we are, and not all of our defensive issues are down to him you’re right. But he does have some pretty obvious defensive flaws which can be easily exploited in our system due to the way we play.

 

I’m happy enough with him, but you don’t win league titles with a Pau Torres in your defence IMO and that’s where I think you’re wrong. For an Arsenal, City or Liverpool his defensive weaknesses wouldn’t be tolerated and he’d be benched. 
 

Unless our revenue hits £400-500m+ in a few years we won’t be able to spend £60m+ on a centre back so Pau is perfectly fine for where we are, but part of the reason we struggle to keep clean sheets is because defending isn’t one of his strong points and it’s fine to point that out.

[Delphinho123]

Part of a very poor defensive unit. He could have Pirlo’s passing range but it simply doesn’t matter if we concede 2 goals every game. 

I’m afraid his above average passing will need to be sacrificed if Mings comes back to the level he was before his injury.

This guy is pants at actually defending. 

[avfc1982am]

1 hour ago, Leeroy said:

Fair points made. I would say that Colwill didn’t go with England because he had an injury towards the end of last season, but he’s also a lot younger than Torres as is Van der Ven. At 27 I’d expect Torres to be able to defend better than he does, regardless of what he adds on the ball.

 

Torres isn’t a bad player at all, he’s good enough for a team chasing a European spot which we are, and not all of our defensive issues are down to him you’re right. But he does have some pretty obvious defensive flaws which can be easily exploited in our system due to the way we play.

 

I’m happy enough with him, but you don’t win league titles with a Pau Torres in your defence IMO and that’s where I think you’re wrong. For an Arsenal, City or Liverpool his defensive weaknesses wouldn’t be tolerated and he’d be benched. 
 

Unless our revenue hits £400-500m+ in a few years we won’t be able to spend £60m+ on a centre back so Pau is perfectly fine for where we are, but part of the reason we struggle to keep clean sheets is because defending isn’t one of his strong points and it’s fine to point that out.

I appreciate you expect more from him and not disregarding that he has flaws(as every player does)however, I would say in response that, you're going to be hard pressed to find a defender currently outside of Man City that is capable of winning a title. Maybe VVD several years ago. How many other current defenders have won a title that can be used as an example of a title winning defender?! For the most part it's not just the defence or even the individual but the team and how they all defend that defines whether they are capable of winning titles. You can put the best defenders in the world in a team and they'd still win nothing if the team isn't good enough as a unit.

As for Torres, he's won a European trophy, not only that but was part of a team that got to a CL semi final after beating Juventus, Bayern etc, and played at the highest levels of club football so as much as people would like to say he's not good enough. Good enough for what exactly?

Until Unai has the team he want's and all the attributes he wants in that team I think it's far too early to say Torres isn't good enough for where we want to be in the future. Yes, he needs to improve in aspects of his game, but so does every player in the squad, and if we are all honest, only Martinez and Tielemans have any claim to achieving what Torres has in the form of silverware. 

[Rightdm00]

1 hour ago, Delphinho123 said:

Part of a very poor defensive unit. He could have Pirlo’s passing range but it simply doesn’t matter if we concede 2 goals every game. 

I’m afraid his above average passing will need to be sacrificed if Mings comes back to the level he was before his injury.

This guy is pants at actually defending. 

How does Mings coming back, and sending Pau to the bench, fix the right side of our defense. That's the obvious issue. Management was aware and tried to bring another CB in but couldn't make the #s work. You sit Pau and we lose the focal point of everything we do from an attacking sense. 

Actually this feels like a move a poor manager like Steven would do. Then we draw 1-1 in a bore of a match and he points to how we are no longer conceeding two goals a game. As long as Unai is the manager he will always setup his team to attack first. You win by scoring goals. One of the main reasons I adore our manager. He gets it. 

[paul514]

It's laughable that people think Pau is the problem when he is absolutely crucial to how we play.

[Farlz]

If we had every single defender fit and perfectly fine, Torres is the first player Unai picks I'm certain. 

God knows where Mings fits in, if at all, but I'd be shocked if it's ahead of him. 

[Stevo985]

4 hours ago, peterw said:

I've said this elsewhere but for me there is a huge 'the emperor's new clothes' about Torres. He's exceptional on the ball and without Luiz is probably alone in setting our tempo. He is absolute class on the ball and rarely gives it away or misplaces a pass. The intercepted pass Konsa made that led to their second yesterday, wouldn't have been such a technically poor execution if it had been Torres. 

However, he isn't there just for that he is there for his defending, which I have to say on the whole is very average at best. He'll get bullied by a bigger striker, rarely seems to win 50/50 duels on the ground and isn't very good in the air. I'm struggling to remember any corner or free-kick that we are defending when you see Torres has cleared it. Towards the back end of this season, and definitely going on into this season we concede so many goals with a ball into the middle from wide, or just players going through the middle that it is becoming noticeable that teams are targeting us there. I appreciate that a lot of runs through the middle would be negated with Kamara being there, but knowing he is out and neither Onana or Tielemans are DCM's it does become questionable that Dendoncker and/or Barrenechea were not retained for that role. However, there are reasons for them, and in particular Onana to be given the job and in the main he has been okay. Yet, we are conceding in every league game and that isn't acceptable. 

If we're being brutally honest neither Torres or Carlos are good enough for the levels we achieved last season, and what we are trying to achieve this. If you look across our back 4, 5 if you want to include Martinez, if they were all sold to an English team tomorrow what are their levels? Martinez would be at a CL team, Konsa likely to be picked up by a CL or Europa League team. Probably a Man U. Digne would also have his takers. Carlos? Well, we'll say Fulham or below. Torres? I'd say maybe a West Ham. He's just not good enough as a top defender. 

You're entitled to your opinion. But you're wrong, simple as that

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

Part of a very poor defensive unit. He could have Pirlo’s passing range but it simply doesn’t matter if we concede 2 goals every game. 

I’m afraid his above average passing will need to be sacrificed if Mings comes back to the level he was before his injury.

This guy is pants at actually defending. 

Konsa is part of that unit too. Is he shit as well?

[Stevo985]

People won't like it, but assuming they're competing for the same position, Mings doesn't get in the team ahead of Pau. before or after his injury

[AndyM3000]

42 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

People won't like it, but assuming they're competing for the same position, Mings doesn't get in the team ahead of Pau. before or after his injury

What I've been saying to anyone who seems to think Mings will solve our problems, he's not getting in the team.

Pau was signed to replace him and help us challenge for CL football, now we are there and I'm afraid we are a level above Mings. He's a fine squad player or backup, similar to what Lenglet offered us, but he's not getting in the 11 if Pau Torres is fit.

[UpTheVilla26]

Christ, the amount of negative comments about our players is ridiculous. 

The same players, give or take 1 or 2, who got us into the Champions League. 

How anyone can pile on Pau is beyond me. The left side of our defence is not the issue at present, it's the right and that is due to lack of a RB for the level we now need. 

[Delphinho123]

1 hour ago, paul514 said:

It's laughable that people think Pau is the problem when he is absolutely crucial to how we play.

Agreed. The way we play is, we let the other team score a couple and try to score more. 

[Delphinho123]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

Konsa is part of that unit too. Is he shit as well?

He’s the only one that can defend to a top level.