2023 Grand National

[AvfcRigo82]

2 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Horse racing is my main entertainment nowadays replacing football. I love horses they are beautiful majestic animals. I also enjoying betting on them but can also get enjoyment from watching races without having a bet. For the most part horses are treated very well in horse racing and I have no doubt some  owners/staff/trainers even have love for their horses.  You cannot deny the risk especially in jump racing that it poses to horses. Races like the grand national there’s a high risk of a horse or several losing their lives. Even bog standard races it happens often enough . 
 

They have put in extra safety measures to make it safer though and will continue to do so. Do I think it should be banned because horses stand a high chance of dying ? No I don’t, it’s part and parcel of horse racing unfortunately.

Absolutely.

Even though it's been stated numerous times already by many of us in the thread so far, it doesn't seem to be registering with certain folk who insist remaining ignorant to the sport and sticking their head in the sand whilst throwing out exaggerated stats over deaths and injuries.

[Rds1983]

47 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Absolutely.

Even though it's been stated numerous times already by many of us in the thread so far, it doesn't seem to be registering with certain folk who insist remaining ignorant to the sport and sticking their head in the sand whilst throwing out exaggerated stats over deaths and injuries.

State it as many times as you want. It maybe getting safer but there is still a decent chance of a horse dying for no other reason than for entertainment. 

It can be spun however you want but people are either okay with animal's dying for purely entertainment purposes or your not. We disagree on which side of the debate is ignorant. 

[VILLAMARV]

Would it be fair to say that considering there are now 13 pages here - a couple of which at the start are talking about the race itself and the rest are at least attempting to discuss the animal rights issues, that this particular protest might have acheived it's aims?

[AvfcRigo82]

47 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

State it as many times as you want. It maybe getting safer but there is still a decent chance of a horse dying for no other reason than for entertainment. 

It can be spun however you want but people are either okay with animal's dying for purely entertainment purposes or your not. We disagree on which side of the debate is ignorant. 

Don't worry, I will. 

Nothing to do with spin and all for debate etc. that's fine. But when certain posters are spurting out bullshit stats to suit their agenda - which was the point I was making - then it just removes any credibility to the point they're trying to make.

I've not a problem with what you've posted or your opinion on the matter.

 

[tomav84]

1 hour ago, Rds1983 said:

State it as many times as you want. It maybe getting safer but there is still a decent chance of a horse dying for no other reason than for entertainment. 

It can be spun however you want but people are either okay with animal's dying for purely entertainment purposes or your not. We disagree on which side of the debate is ignorant. 

people are ok with horse racing bearing in mind that theres a very slim chance of a horse dying just like people are ok with a cow or pig being slaughtered just because their meat tastes good. neither are a necessity, it's for entertainment and enjoyment.

everyone (except maybe a 100% perfect vegan...and those are a very rare breed) has an element of hypocrisy about them. for example, i love my cats like they're my children. if there was some event involving cats where there was even a slim chance of a fatality, i'd be on the track protesting with the rest of them. but i love cats...i don't love horses...so i can enjoy horse racing.

[chrisp65]

59 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Don't worry, I will. 

Nothing to do with spin and all for debate etc. that's fine. But when certain posters are spurting out bullshit stats to suit their agenda - which was the point I was making - then it just removes any credibility to the point they're trying to make.

I've not a problem with what you've posted or your opinion on the matter.

 

C’mon man, I’ve offered to park it, but you persist with the abuse.

 

[Rds1983]

30 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

people are ok with horse racing bearing in mind that theres a very slim chance of a horse dying just like people are ok with a cow or pig being slaughtered just because their meat tastes good. neither are a necessity, it's for entertainment and enjoyment.

everyone (except maybe a 100% perfect vegan...and those are a very rare breed) has an element of hypocrisy about them. for example, i love my cats like they're my children. if there was some event involving cats where there was even a slim chance of a fatality, i'd be on the track protesting with the rest of them. but i love cats...i don't love horses...so i can enjoy horse racing.

Eating meat does actually serve a purpose though as people need to eat and getting enough protein from non-meat sources can be challenging. 

Yes people could make more ethical choices about what they eat (including myself as I eat meat but try not to buy battery farmed meat, to include vegetarian/vegan meals a few times a week and no longer drink cows milk). I believe society will slowly move more and more along these lines and in the last few years I'm seeing this a lot more.

However I'm not convinced the world is physically ready if everyone became vegan overnight as the supply is not there.

I'm not convinced it is a slim chance of a horse dying. If it was this wouldn't have become such a thing as it would fly under the radar more.

Personally I feel comparing a genuine human necessity (eating) to entertainment is a poor attempt at justification and little more than a distraction technique. 

Even if both were equally bad, two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm not judging or attacking anyone in here if they like horse racing or placing a bet. It's not illegal. As I said in an earlier post I've done it myself when I was younger. I just nowadays struggle with the justification when looking at it from a benefits vs costs point of view. 

I'm also curious what people's thoughts on modern fox hunting is and if they think that should be banned? Under the new requirements they're not meant to kill the fox so it has a slim chance of dying and people are getting enjoyment from the chase. But I there's a number of people on here who wouldn't support it but are pro horse racing. 

[Rugeley Villa]

3 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Absolutely.

Even though it's been stated numerous times already by many of us in the thread so far, it doesn't seem to be registering with certain folk who insist remaining ignorant to the sport and sticking their head in the sand whilst throwing out exaggerated stats over deaths and injuries.

I’m cool with people not being ok with horse racing . Kind of even get it in a way . Horse racing is kind of like an establishment kind of thing , so maybe that’s why some protestors protest against it also? You know your anti establishment types. Just a thought .

[Rds1983]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

C’mon man, I’ve offered to park it, but you persist with the abuse.

 

I'm going to try and leave the thread too as feel people are fundamentally opposed and it'll potentially verge from lighthearted debate to something unpleasant. 

I've made my points and tried to listen to the other side (and have learnt some interesting bits and pieces).

[Rugeley Villa]

@Rds1983 you’re correct it isn’t a slim chance a horse will die in national . It’s very high and I think the stats back it up 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Rugeley Villa

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Don't worry, I will. 

Nothing to do with spin and all for debate etc. that's fine. But when certain posters are spurting out bullshit stats to suit their agenda - which was the point I was making - then it just removes any credibility to the point they're trying to make.

I've not a problem with what you've posted or your opinion on the matter.

 

Respectfully if “bullshit stats” is all you’ve taken from “certain posters “ posts , then you’re not really reading what’s on the page and  just seeing what you want to see perhaps ?

 

 

[Stevo985]

3 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Absolutely.

Even though it's been stated numerous times already by many of us in the thread so far, it doesn't seem to be registering with certain folk who insist remaining ignorant to the sport and sticking their head in the sand whilst throwing out exaggerated stats over deaths and injuries.

Treating animals well is not an excuse for then exploiting them. 
 

If I treated a load of humans well most of the time and then made them fight to the death, nobody would excuse my exploitation of them because I treat them well sometimes. 
 

The argument makes no sense

[Stevo985]

51 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

Eating meat does actually serve a purpose though as people need to eat and getting enough protein from non-meat sources can be challenging. 

Nobody needs to eat meat. Nobody. 
But that’s for another thread 

[tomav84]

41 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

Eating meat does actually serve a purpose though as people need to eat and getting enough protein from non-meat sources can be challenging.

it's not challenging, in any way shape or form. beans, nuts, etc are all high in protein. and besides, there are all sorts of supplements that can be taken. the only reason people eat meat is because they enjoy it. it's not a necessity.

41 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

However I'm not convinced the world is physically ready if everyone became vegan overnight as the supply is not there.

agree on this. we have no idea what the planet would look like were the human race be 100% plant based. 

41 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

Personally I feel comparing a genuine human necessity (eating) to entertainment is a poor attempt at justification and little more than a distraction technique. 

i believe it's a valid argument. people that eat meat cannot criticise horse racing IMO. as i mentioned above, eating meat is a choice, not a necessity.

41 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

Even if both were equally bad, two wrongs don't make a right.

not saying they do, i just don't think people that eat meat have are in a position to oppose horse racing

41 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

I'm also curious what people's thoughts on modern fox hunting is and if they think that should be banned? Under the new requirements they're not meant to kill the fox so it has a slim chance of dying and people are getting enjoyment from the chase. But I there's a number of people on here who wouldn't support it but are pro horse racing. 

i oppose it. if a horse doesn't want to race, he doesn't. simple as. a fox on the other hand doesn't know he's not going to be killed...he's running away because he feels the dog is going to kill him and would be incredibly distressed. but i accept my hypocrisy...many would (rightly) question how i can oppose one sport involving animals but be OK with another. i guess i just see one as much less cruel than the other...others would see them as equally bad

[AvfcRigo82]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

C’mon man, I’ve offered to park it, but you persist with the abuse.

 

 

1 hour ago, Rds1983 said:

I'm going to try and leave the thread too as feel people are fundamentally opposed and it'll potentially verge from lighthearted debate to something unpleasant. 

I've made my points and tried to listen to the other side (and have learnt some interesting bits and pieces).

My last post was a little shitty I agree. Had a crap day but no excuse to take it out on you guys, So my apologies.

We have our views and I think we've all made enough points for and against it now in the thread over the last x amount of pages and we've argued it to the death.

It's fair to say it's a marmite subject.

Atleast we can show the protesters that we've "had the conversation".

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by AvfcRigo82

[bielesibub]

wow, thanks for the views. Really didn't anticipate the debate, I used to hate horses and horse racing. I lived with a girl from Gerrards Cross who was a real horse lover,  at the time I tried to like them but never could. Now, 25 odd years later, I am seeing them in a different light. They've become a very welcome distraction from the every day crappiness of my illness. I was a pretty handy IT boffin before I had to retire and have spent many of my spare hours using those IT skills in gathering and collating horse racing stats and then trying to understand what makes a winner and what doesn't. It's almost like a game of whack-a-mole, every time you think you've got something, the next day it's gone.  I did get 5 winners, 2 places, 1 horse let me down today though. Tomorrow will be another day. From a selfish point of view I want the horses to keep running otherwise I'm not sure what I would do with my time.

[Rds1983]

36 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

it's not challenging, in any way shape or form. beans, nuts, etc are all high in protein. and besides, there are all sorts of supplements that can be taken. the only reason people eat meat is because they enjoy it. it's not a necessity.

I see eating meat as a necessity (for now) as the world isn't ready for nearly 8 billion people to stop eating it and still adequately feed everyone.

To maintain the body composition and muscle mass I want (I admit this is largely vanity) for my size I need to eat about 200g of protein a day. I also don't want to eat more than 2500 calories a day and ideally less. This is challenging on a plant only based diet as a lot of the high (but not as high as meat) protein foods are calorific. However I do eat a lot of legumes, mushrooms, broccoli, spinach etc. 

I know a few vegan weightlifters/bodybuilders and they do struggle getting enough protein. I've tried vegan protein supplements and am yet to find one that doesn't taste of cardboard. 

However, as you say I and anyone else could live without eating meat and I believe the world will eventually go that way. 

This is far from off topic though and for another thread so I'll try and bring it back by saying I still disagree that supporting horse racing and eating meat is the same thing. It might be on the same ladder but they're different rungs. A bit like comparing horse racing to fox hunting or bull fighting. 

I'm trying to stay out of this thread now though so will try not to post again.

[Rds1983]

The last thing I'll say on this topic (hopefully) is that I'm not against horse racing per se.

I'm against the fact that horses appear to somewhat regularly die or sustain serious injury. 

If this element could be removed or drastically reduced I'd have no qualms about it (apart from being anti established gambling but that's a wider matter).

[bickster]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

Treating animals well is not an excuse for then exploiting them. 

How do we square that with police sniffer dogs?

[Stevo985]

23 minutes ago, bickster said:

How do we square that with police sniffer dogs?

Depends what counts as exploitation and necessity, which is a different argument. 
 

Im merely saying that treating something well some of the time and exploiting them the rest of the time is not a fair trade. 
 

It’s an argument that’s often used for animal cruelty but it makes no sense.