2023 Grand National

[OutByEaster?]

It would seem sensible to me to take the fences away - they seem to cause most of the trouble and taking the fences away wouldn't stop the horses generating the random results thing that the betting industry needs, nor would it stop a whole lot of people having a good drink and getting dressed up - it'd just make the horses, and jockeys for that matter, safer.

 

[bickster]

4 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

What do we do with the tens of thousands of horses that are Bred to race?

Dog food for the animal lovers dogs?

It's the most practical solution

[bielesibub]

10 minutes ago, bickster said:

Dog food for the animal lovers dogs?

It's the most practical solution

Putting the Pedigree into Pedigree Chum

[Stevo985]

4 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

 

What do we do with the tens of thousands of horses that are Bred to race?

 

This is such a **** stupid argument. No offence

[tomav84]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

It would seem sensible to me to take the fences away - they seem to cause most of the trouble and taking the fences away wouldn't stop the horses generating the random results thing that the betting industry needs, nor would it stop a whole lot of people having a good drink and getting dressed up - it'd just make the horses, and jockeys for that matter, safer.

 

in theory, yes, but it's not that simple. it would be like banning rugby union but keeping rugby league (not exactly, but it's the best comparison i can think of). entire trainers yards would go out of business overnight because they're solely focussed on national hunt rather than flat/all weather

you get falls on the flat too...they're rare but they happen and unfotunately due to the higher speed, it's often fatal. it's only a matter of time before something happens in something like the derby and the protesters will be out again

anyway...taking the fences away wouldn't satisfy the protesters, any more than it would if you banned beef and lamb production but allowed pork and chicken still

[AvfcRigo82]

31 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

This is such a **** stupid argument. No offence

Thank you. None taken. 

[fightoffyour]

If racing were just stopped tomorrow then it’s a valid argument what to do with all the horses, and that they wouldn’t be better looked after than they are by the trainers / owners now, but if it were phased out by stopping breeding specifically for this purpose then yeah there wouldn’t be all these horses roaming around.

[AvfcRigo82]

49 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

If racing were just stopped tomorrow then it’s a valid argument what to do with all the horses, and that they wouldn’t be better looked after than they are by the trainers / owners now, but if it were phased out by stopping breeding specifically for this purpose then yeah there wouldn’t be all these horses roaming around.

Exactly. This is what most of us are referring to if horse racing was to stop as of tomorrow.

However, I don't think they will succeed in phasing horse racing out. Horse racing has been going on for a very long time and will continue to do so imo. "The sport of Kings".

 

 

[robby b]

4 hours ago, CVByrne said:

Whatever the future holds for society, the people protesting everything don't actually care about an outcome of saving horses lives they care about the their own tribe and how the appear to others in their tribe. 

I disagree. Please don't underestimate how much some people genuinely care about animal welfare (like me, for example). And it's not just about saving their lives, it's also about wanting to prevent serious injuries and suffering as well as wanting to prevent them from being exploited.

[fightoffyour]

7 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Exactly. This is what most of us are referring to if horse racing was to stop as of tomorrow.

However, I don't think they will succeed in phasing horse racing out. Horse racing has been going on for a very long time and will continue to do so imo. "The sport of Kings".

 

 

Fair enough, I didn't realise that anyone was actually arguing for all racing to just be stopped immediately, That would indeed be counter productive for the existing horses' welfare.

Edited April 19, 2023 by fightoffyour

[chrisp65]

What happens to the race horses that are bred but don’t make the grade?

I presume there must be some that are just plain slow, or old, or have some feature that makes them unsuitable.

They can’t all be going to stud, we’d be over run with horses. I guess they can’t all become pets in the Cotswolds.

What currently happens to them? A quick google suggests many are slaughtered which I’m doubtful of in such a clearly loving and caring industry where animal welfare is paramount.

[Stevo985]

8 hours ago, fightoffyour said:

If racing were just stopped tomorrow then it’s a valid argument what to do with all the horses, and that they wouldn’t be better looked after than they are by the trainers / owners now, but if it were phased out by stopping breeding specifically for this purpose then yeah there wouldn’t be all these horses roaming around.

Its the same as people who say “what would happen to all the millions of cows that are bred for food if we stopped eating meat”

It wouldn’t be overnight. We wouldn’t suddenly say “as of midnight nobody will ever eat meat”

Animals would stop being bred for food. 
 

It’s the same here. Horses would stop being bred for racing and the number involved would shrink. 
 

 

[AvfcRigo82]

15 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Its the same as people who say “what would happen to all the millions of cows that are bred for food if we stopped eating meat”

It wouldn’t be overnight. We wouldn’t suddenly say “as of midnight nobody will ever eat meat”

Animals would stop being bred for food. 

It’s the same here. Horses would stop being bred for racing and the number involved would shrink. 

Would you like horse racing banned?

[bickster]

14 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

It’s the same here. Horses would stop being bred for racing and the number involved would shrink. 

I've really got no skin in this game as quite frankly, I don't care but the argument isn't valid because surely Horse Racing would literally stop overnight. Do you really envisage them stopping this one racecourse at a time? It'll either be banned (it won't) or not, there will be no phased reduction in racing

On a completely different tack, what would be the chances of say some obscenely oil rich state with a love of horse racing just recreating Aintree in the desert for shits and giggles

[blandy]

There’s already a problem with “what happens to the horses”.

 

[AvfcRigo82]

Just found this on the BBC website. Trainer Sandy Thompson (Hill Sixteen trainer).

 

Josh Darling hit the road at seven on Saturday morning, pulling out of Sandy Thomson's place at Lambden near Kelso with his mate Michael Williams upsides and a horsebox out the back with a calm Hill Sixteen comfortably housed within.

Darling and Williams, the travelling head lad and the assistant, were the advance party bound for Aintree, the rest following on later in the morning.

Hill Sixteen had been fed and watered. The vet had been in, the medical done, the paperwork completed. The 10-year-old was running in the Grand National later in the day. Not a familiar race, but a very familiar track.

He'd been over those National fences twice before. Finished an excellent second in the Becher Chase in 2021 and seventh in the same race in 2022. Jumped well. Travelled smoothly.

There'd been a problem with his wind earlier in the year but that was fixed now. In the parlance of the game, he'd had an interrupted preparation, hence his fancy odds, but everyone at Thomson's yard was buzzing.

Trainer blames protestors for horse death

What were Grand National protests about and what could happen next?

All the latest horse racing results

Ryan Mania, the Grand National-winning jockey, was in the saddle. They couldn't have hoped for better. They were dreaming of victory, they were hoping for a place, they were optimistic of a clear round, but most of all, more than anything else, they just wanted him back safely.

Two Scottish horses went to Liverpool for the big race - one of them won and the other one died.

As Lucinda Russell brought the magnificent Corach Rambler into a packed and euphoric winners' enclosure, Thomson was down at the first fence with the stricken Hill Sixteen, the horse's neck broken, his life extinguished after a crashing fall.

Hill Sixteen jumped 398 hurdles and fences in 27 races on 15 different racecourses over four years and never fell once - until Saturday.

Those twin images of the two Scottish trainers are stark. The feted Russell and the lonely Thomson. "Triumph and disaster," he said on Monday.

Not many trainers get to experience the elation Russell felt on Saturday, but the loss of a horse is something most go through at some stage. She might have been in a parallel universe, but Russell would have known what Thomson was going through.

There's been so much fury in the aftermath of the National. The protestors from Animal Rising and beyond have condemned racing and racing has responded.

Thomson says he's received hundreds and hundreds of emails and social media messages from strangers wanting to empathise with him, his staff and the owners of Hill Sixteen for the loss of a much-loved horse. And he's also had floods of bile and hatred.

The world knows Hill Sixteen's name in death, but never knew him in life. He made his way to Thomson's yard in late 2021 via Sue Smith in West Yorkshire and Nigel Twiston-Davies in Gloucestershire.

He won a novices hurdle at Carlisle, a handicap chase at Sedgefield, another handicap chase at Ffos Las in Wales and a handicap hurdle at Wetherby. That second place at Aintree was better than the victories. Bigger stage, better race. He showed a lot of potential that day.

"He was one of these lovely big horses," said Thomson. "He loved his carrots, loved galloping, enjoyed life. He didn't have a bad bone in his body, a very honest horse. Just got on with it. The staff were really, really attached to him.

"We were in good spirits going down there. We knew he could jump and we knew he could stay. He arrived safely, got inspected by the vet again and everyone was happy."

Having a runner in the National meant a lot to Thomson. His grandfather, Moffat, bought Lambden in the 1920s and bred a horse called MacMoffat, who finished second in the National in 1939 and 1940. His father, David, was a jockey and trainer. Horses are at the heart of his family story.

Horses and rugby. Thomson was a handy player. He won a Scottish championship with Kelso, played against New Zealand and Australia with South of Scotland, played Scotland B.

"Heading down to Aintree reminded me of my days sitting in a dressing room waiting to go out and play a match," he said. You're nervous but you're normally all right when you get out there and everything starts."

Only this time everything got worse, not better. He started to get a bad feeling about the protestors when Hill Sixteen was in the paddock. The race was delayed amid the chaos.

Hill Sixteen was saddled up and then the saddle was removed as the news came through that the start time had been pushed back. "That's when all the problems started. People were getting agitated, horses were getting worked up and a bit hyper," Thomson said.

"Something was going on, so we got Hill Sixteen back into his box, took the saddle off him and washed him down because it was a hot day.

"We squirted some water down his throat to rehydrate him and I went to see what was going on and was told that we needed to get back in the paddock, so we had to get the saddle back on him quickly. It was all very rushed.

"Everything was heightened. We were one of the last into the parade ring but we were in and out way faster than we should have been.

"The parade is so important. It gives horses a chance to compose themselves and get used to the crowd and the noise but none of that was possible because the authorities needed the race to start. The protestors had caused chaos."

Thomson stayed in the paddock to watch the race, looking at it on television while saying to himself that he'd start to relax once Hill Sixteen was over the first fence and was safely on his way.

"You just feel more relaxed when they're over the first. It's not just the National, it's any race."

In the cavalry charge to the first, he saw some horses come down. The pictures moved on too quickly to see what had fallen but the news soon came over the commentary. Hill Sixteen was out of the race.

Thomson made his way to the bend after the winning post to see the horses go by in the hope of seeing the riderless Hill Sixteen ambling between horses, but there was no sign of him. There were loose horses, but not his loose horse.

He looked down the track and could make out a marshal waving a flag by the first fence. His heart sank. The flag usually means there's a horse or rider on the floor and that the fence would be bypassed on the second circuit. Mania was on his feet, but Hill Sixteen was not.

"The alarm bells really started ringing. Ryan had to be taken away in an ambulance, so I didn't see him. It was a desperate scene. Absolutely horrible. Going down there, you don't know for sure, but you're preparing yourself," he said.

"The screens were up around him and he was covered in a sheet. I just got down beside him and stroked his neck and thanked him for everything he'd done for us. I said sorry. It was so upsetting.

"The only blessing in the whole thing was that he wouldn't have known anything about it. He died straight away. I've read that he was euthanised, but he wasn't. He was such a lovely horse. Everybody is still raw. It's distressing."

Thomson gathered his staff together on Monday morning. "We all had a chat. They love these horses. They feed them, they muck out after them, they groom them, they're very close to them.

"We had an empty horsebox coming back into the yard and it was extremely sad. We put another horse into Hill Sixteen's stable because we didn't want the feeling of emptiness. He was a special horse to everyone here."

Thomson has blasted the protestors, accusing them of making Hill Sixteen hyper and, in part, contributing to his death.

"I think I said they [the protestors] had blood on their hands, which might be a bit strong, but there's no doubt in my mind that the chaos contributed to his death. In my heart of hearts, I believe that."

 

Here

[chrisp65]

36 minutes ago, bickster said:

I've really got no skin in this game as quite frankly, I don't care but the argument isn't valid because surely Horse Racing would literally stop overnight. Do you really envisage them stopping this one racecourse at a time? It'll either be banned (it won't) or not, there will be no phased reduction in racing

On a completely different tack, what would be the chances of say some obscenely oil rich state with a love of horse racing just recreating Aintree in the desert for shits and giggles

I’m not for or against horse racing, what I’ve been interested in here has been the responses of the pro racing contributors.

But it would be perfectly possible to phase it out. If I was in charge and if I wanted it phased out, I’d look at limiting opportunities to bet. Then there’s restricting the length of races or the height of fences. I guess we could put something in place where yards and stables would have to keep the horses that aren’t suitable for racing, or fund their lovely lifestyle.

It would be a death by a thousand cuts. Until its never actually banned, it’s just not viable for people to make a living from the industry that is gambling on horse racing.

If they re create Aintree in Qatar, well, I guess that goes on the to do list just behind rescuing Spanish donkeys. 

[tomav84]

40 minutes ago, bickster said:

On a completely different tack, what would be the chances of say some obscenely oil rich state with a love of horse racing just recreating Aintree in the desert for shits and giggles

there's currently flat racing in dubai and UAE already but yes, some other country would just create a rules race with similar characteristics to the grand national

[tomav84]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I’m not for or against horse racing, what I’ve been interested in here has been the responses of the pro racing contributors.

But it would be perfectly possible to phase it out. If I was in charge and if I wanted it phased out, I’d look at limiting opportunities to bet. Then there’s restricting the length of races or the height of fences. I guess we could put something in place where yards and stables would have to keep the horses that aren’t suitable for racing, or fund their lovely lifestyle.

It would be a death by a thousand cuts. Until its never actually banned, it’s just not viable for people to make a living from the industry that is gambling on horse racing.

If they re create Aintree in Qatar, well, I guess that goes on the to do list just behind rescuing Spanish donkeys. 

in charge of what? the BHA don't have any juristiction around whether the gambling companies choose to offer markets on their sport any more than the premier league can't stop people betting on football. and it's not like the gambling commission is going to ban horse betting betting.

if you  mean "if you were in charge" as in you were minister for sport, and you somehow managed to pursuade parliament to pass legislation preventing bookies offering horse racing markets, it still doesn't stop international sports books offering odds on the racing. and no self respecting minister is going to 'phase out' something that brings in huge amounts of tax £

so whilst it's technically possible to phase it out, it won't happen any more than any other sport that generates sizable income

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, tomav84 said:

in charge of what? the BHA don't have any juristiction around whether the gambling companies choose to offer markets on their sport any more than the premier league can't stop people betting on football. and it's not like the gambling commission is going to ban horse betting betting.

if you  mean "if you were in charge" as in you were minister for sport, and you somehow managed to pursuade parliament to pass legislation preventing bookies offering horse racing markets, it still doesn't stop international sports books offering odds on the racing. and no self respecting minister is going to 'phase out' something that brings in huge amounts of tax £

so whilst it's technically possible to phase it out, it won't happen any more than any other sport that generates sizable income

‘In charge’ as in able to change things, benign dictator.

I was just illustrating that it isn’t a binary choice that we have all the horses racing exactly as we have it now, or we stop it overnight. 

It’s perfectly possible to make it less financially viable which will cause all the people only in it for the love of the horses, to maybe move across to something else they love.

But hey, we’re agreeing, it’s perfectly possible to phase it out.