bickster Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Genie said: First one was, 2,3 & 4 and it’s all quiet. They've got to find the debris first and they weren't exactly downed in accessible places. The US aren't going to make announcements about it until they are sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mandy Lifeboats Posted February 13, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 13, 2023 If they find Nicola Bulley in the wreckage we may mave to merge 2 topics. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 Somewhere along the line a young radar operator or pilot has had to go into the office of a very senior military official or politician and when asked what it was that was shot down has had to say "I don't know Sir, but it was octagonal". I'd love to have heard the long silence after that. They're saying the things are much smaller than the first balloon and I think that kinda makes sense. When you think about it, with the way technology is now, if you're going with a swarm rather than a single large object (and giving up predictable accuracy for a sort of "lets see where they end up" approach) you could have thousands of these things no bigger than a sports bag beaming info back to China 24/7. I know that's not what these are (and it sounds like they're sort of car sized) but it's interesting that sometimes we imagine a threat very different from the one we get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 24 minutes ago, pas5898 said: Read somewhere the majority of Radar wasn't looking for such heat signatures, speed or size therefore this has likely been happening for years whilst barely being noticed. Effectively China found a blackspot in the their coverage and probably been exploiting if for a while. Now they've adjusted their coverage these will show up all the time. Horrendously embarrassing for the DoD. Not to be all geeky, or anything....OK, geeky, but Radar doesn't "look" for heat signatures. Radar works by transmitting a Radio Frequency (RF) signal from a directional antenna (dish) which if/when it hits an object is reflected back and received at the dish. "heat signatures" don't reflect sufficient, if any energy back, so radar doesn't "look" for them. Next, Radar doesn't "look" for objects of a particular size or speed. Where there is an element of truth in what you write (that you read) is that objects of a particular size and speed will have a "signature" which indicates that they are a particular type of object (airliner, fighter jet, Balloon etc). In terms of airspace management, and particularly controlled airspace management, Radar is used alongside IFF/SSR (the SSR part refers to secondary surveillance radar) which receives (from suitably equipped aircraft) a signal the aircraft sends when "pinged" by the SSR - it's like a question "who are you?" and the aircraft's IFF/SSR transponder replies with "I'm Flight QR090 from Doha to Manchester, I'm an Airbus 320, I'm at 30,000 feet and my heading is this and etc...." ATS (air traffic Services) then use this information to manage the controlled airspace and ensure safe separation of traffic etc. If something is picked up, but doesn't respond, then depending on its height and so on, other air traffic is told to avoid that part of the sky. The US (and UK and most other nations) have 2 things they do - firstly there's the normal managing of air traffic to keep aircraft safe, and then secondly there's for want of a better word "Security/defence" where in addition to normal management of the skies there's looking out for incursions, or prospective incursion into national airspace, above and below and outside controlled airspace (as well as in it). Again, objects of a particular signature and type of movement will correspond with "large aircraft, or fast moving smaller aircraft and so on - and those are the ones easiest picked up, but the RAF's (or USAF etc) radars will obviously pick up other stuff, too and then the operators seek to identify any threat it might pose to safety or whatever. It looks like the US has for a number of years tracked very high altitude balloons over US territory. It happened when Trump was President, we know, so obviously something has prompted a different course of action than previously taken. The US may have decided to just draw a line against these ballon activities, it may be solely political, it may be a change due to China's more strident actions around Taiwan etc. But it's not my view that "they've adjusted their coverage", more that they've decided to be more public in what they say and do, and changed the way they respond to it all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 If they says it’s the size on an American car then it’s like a UK apartment block. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 39 minutes ago, bickster said: Because they don't know They know, we don't, as if they haven't already got detailed pictures of them. I'm sure they know exactly where they have come from too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 17 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: Somewhere along the line a young radar operator or pilot has had to go into the office of a very senior military official or politician and when asked what it was that was shot down has had to say "I don't know Sir, but it was octagonal". I'd love to have heard the long silence after that. In America, I'm led to believe they have some of the modern technologies you may have heard of or seen on science programmes - one such is something called "the Camera". These clever bits of tech enable an operator of such a device to capture a facsimile of an object and reproduce that facsimile for the entertainment and enlightenment of delighted spectators and onlookers. I'm speculating wildly here, but I wonder if it would be possible for an aviator in one of those airplane thingies to simultaneously operate the airplane and the camera contraption? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 More relevant in here than the Ukraine topic I think It's all the rage these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 1 minute ago, foreveryoung said: They know, we don't, as if they haven't already got detailed pictures of them. I'm sure they know exactly where they have come from too. You beat me too it. Further to that, they'll also have gathered signals data, I'm sure - is it transmitting? on which frequencies? what type of modulation, PRF, etc etc. and from that you can determine all sorts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 Just now, blandy said: You beat me too it. Further to that, they'll also have gathered signals data, I'm sure - is it transmitting? on which frequencies? what type of modulation, PRF, etc etc. and from that you can determine all sorts. I bet @foreveryoung to it There’s no way the US don’t know what they shot down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, bickster said: More relevant in here than the Ukraine topic I think It's all the rage these days Corner reflectors don't block radar or radio waves. Quite the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 Just now, blandy said: Corner reflectors don't block radar or radio waves. Quite the opposite. No clue, that's your field not mine I'm investigating the use of balloons as taxis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 Where exactly are the corners on a balloon anyway? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, blandy said: In America, I'm led to believe they have some of the modern technologies you may have heard of or seen on science programmes - one such is something called "the Camera". These clever bits of tech enable an operator of such a device to capture a facsimile of an object and reproduce that facsimile for the entertainment and enlightenment of delighted spectators and onlookers. I'm speculating wildly here, but I wonder if it would be possible for an aviator in one of those airplane thingies to simultaneously operate the airplane and the camera contraption? I'm just going on what they've told us. You don't think they might be lying do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 1 minute ago, bickster said: What good would external pictures taken from a good distance reveal about the gubbins on the inside of the object? Photos my hold some clues but nowhere near the full picture required They need to forensically examine the debris to determine what they actually are, I doubt they'll have managed that on any of the objects so far, they haven't even found debris for the latest three yet You can tell a surprising amount if the images are of the requisite quality. Add to that (as I just posted above) any SigInt they've gathered. I mean for example if antennas are visible, are any apertures for cameras visible, are any sensors visible, does the craft have an engine or propellors or fins or....is there anyone inside! - they wouldn't shoot it down if there was a human in it, obviously. You're right of course that examination of the wreckage should reveal a lot more, but it's likely that they've gathered quite a bit more data than they've revealed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 Just now, OutByEaster? said: I'm just going on what they've told us. You don't think they might be lying do you? I was just riffing on the (in my minds eye) entertaining imagery you created of a young pilot or radar operator being called in to see his nibs and stammering that he'd seen this octagonal flying object and had no idea what it was, or how to describe it. Everyone's lying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 I do love the way that in amongst the standard reporting procedure on all of these types of things from the US military is that they always do just enough to keep the extra terrestrial object nutters frothing at the mouth. "We don't know what it is" and "We don't know the method of propulsion" just enough to get them all excited. I'm guessing the noise is helpful when you're trying to do your own thing quietly. I believe that in this case, the US has publicly refused to rule out that these object are extra terrestrial in nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Where exactly are the corners on a balloon anyway? Quote US Northern Command Commander General Glen VanHerck said that there was no indication of any threat. "I'm not going to categorise them as balloons. We're calling them objects for a reason," he said. "What we are seeing is very, very small objects that produce a very, very low radar cross-section," he added. bbc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobsons Choice Posted February 13, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted February 13, 2023 I think the telling thing is that the locations that all of these objects were shot down line up quite nicely with the present/recent location of the Jetstream across the Continental US. I think that points to balloons of some type. I know they are capable of some movement, but would still largely follow the jetstream, at least initially to get over the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2023 I wonder how small "very small" is. In theory how small could you make an object that could beam back information to a country on the other side of the world? Thumb sized? Could you launch a couple of hundred thousand of those and just wait until one drifts over something useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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