Sam-AVFC Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Contractual terms are as laid out in specific contracts. There is literally no way of any of us knowing without reading the contract, regardless of what they call it. Saying 'show me proof of an option where a player turned a club down' isn't the gotcha some think. If you had an option on a loan player who was not obligated to accept it, they'd still be at the club when this was discussed. Why would the club leak to the press that when they informed the player they wanted to activate the clause they were told there was no interest and he would not sign a contract with them? I also can't see what a player would get by leaking the club wanted them and they told them to do one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 Can we just be clear here, players are not being "forced" to join a club they don't want to. They sign the contract at the outset knowing about the option to buy clause. If they were worried about this they wouldn't sign up to it and insist on a normal loan deal instead. It's like saying after them signing up to a 5 year contract then deciding they're not happy 12 months in that they are being forced to stay at the club. Well tough shit, you signed the contract. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, sidcow said: Can we just be clear here, players are not being "forced" to join a club they don't want to. They sign the contract at the outset knowing about the option to buy clause. If they were worried about this they wouldn't sign up to it and insist on a normal loan deal instead. It's like saying after them signing up to a 5 year contract then deciding they're not happy 12 months in that they are being forced to stay at the club. Well tough shit, you signed the contract. There is also nothing stopping the clubs from agreeing a fixed fee without the player agreeing a contract. You have no possible way of knowing this isn't the case, however confidently you present it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, Sam-AVFC said: There is also nothing stopping the clubs from agreeing a fixed fee without the player agreeing a contract. You have no possible way of knowing this isn't the case, however confidently you present it. I do because it's called an option to buy clause, not a fixed fee clause. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 21 minutes ago, LondonLax said: We're not going to know the details of the agreement so anyone on here claiming definitively is talking rubbish. My interpretation is that we have agreed an option to buy him off Barcelona for a fixed price. Barcelona can no longer do anything about it if he decides to join us at the end of the season. However as always the player themselves has a say on whether they actually want to sign another contract with us. All signs so far indicate he is up for it. And as per normal this is negotiated and agreed at the initial signing of the contract. It is the same as when a club has an option to extend a player's contract by 1 year. The vast majority of times the player does not want this option exercised as they could demand more money from a transfer with a lower contract term and the player has no say but to accept the extended contract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, sidcow said: I do because it's called an option to buy clause, not a fixed fee clause. That's a nonsense argument. The meaning of a contract clause will be defined within the contract and anything else is guesswork. I don't know why people always have to be right, rather than accept sometimes none of us have the information to know. It's also laughable to think any club would say 'tough shit we're signing you anyway' to a player who didn't want to join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said: That's a nonsense argument. The meaning of a contract clause will be defined within the contract and anything else is guesswork. I don't know why people always have to be right, rather than accept sometimes none of us have the information to know. It's also laughable to think any club would say 'tough shit we're signing you anyway' to a player who didn't want to join. Well yeah, if you read my earlier post you will see I said a buying club would be very unlikely to exercise the option with an unhappy player because that would be stupid....... But they still probably could if they wanted. I agree no one knows what the contract says but if it says anything other than he is not our player of we choose it to be so then option to buy clauses do not exist, but they patently do. Edited February 5, 2022 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 6 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said: That's a nonsense argument. The meaning of a contract clause will be defined within the contract and anything else is guesswork. I don't know why people always have to be right, rather than accept sometimes none of us have the information to know. It's also laughable to think any club would say 'tough shit we're signing you anyway' to a player who didn't want to join. None of us know what is in the contract and yes it could be anything. However, looking at precedence from other football contracts and it is reasonable to hypothesise that Villa can sign Coutinho if we wish too. Suggesting that Coutinho is not contractually bound to become a Villa player if we exercise the clause is far less likely based on footballing contract precedence. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, Peter Griffin said: None of us know what is in the contract and yes it could be anything. However, looking at precedence from other football contracts and it is reasonable to hypothesise that Villa can sign Coutinho if we wish too. Suggesting that Coutinho is not contractually bound to become a Villa player if we exercise the clause is far less likely based on footballing contract precedence. But you have no proof anyone who has joined after a buy option was exercised was contractually bound to, that's just your assumption. Anyway, I think I'll dip out on this one. I have a tendency to drag myself into some of the more repetitive discussions and need to avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 16 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: And as per normal this is negotiated and agreed at the initial signing of the contract. It is the same as when a club has an option to extend a player's contract by 1 year. The vast majority of times the player does not want this option exercised as they could demand more money from a transfer with a lower contract term and the player has no say but to accept the extended contract Yes that could be one possibility, and the other is that the player has reserved their right to have a say. We'll probably never find out what the arrangement is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 9 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Yes that could be one possibility, and the other is that the player has reserved their right to have a say. We'll probably never find out what the arrangement is. That is simply not true. If the player has a say then there is no option. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 19 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said: But you have no proof anyone who has joined after a buy option was exercised was contractually bound to, that's just your assumption. And not one player ever has disclosed this. And not one journalist has got wind of it. Highly highly unlikely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 10 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: That is simply not true. If the player has a say then there is no option. That’s simply not true. The option being discussed can conceivably be with the club but not yet agreed with the player. It’s not possible to “win” this argument because no one on here is privy to which case it is so I’ll leave you to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rightdm00 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 It makes zero sense for a player to pre-negotiate a multi-year contract with his loan club. What if he goes on to have a stormer of a loan but is now bound by a contract in which he will be underpaid. What if he hates the area or a better offer turns up elsewhere. I struggle to see the benefit to the player. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 2 hours ago, Delphinho123 said: So, if I’m reading this right, we can sign him for the agreed price at the end of the season and Coutinho doesn’t have a say as he’s pre agreed the contract in advance? I think that's very unlikely. We'll have a greed a fee with Barcelona. I very much doubt nothing has been agreed with Coutinho outside of the loan deal he's currently on. It's all a moot point anyway, if he's good enough for us to want to sign him then he will be playing good football again and would likely want to stay regardelss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said: It makes zero sense for a player to pre-negotiate a multi-year contract with his loan club. What if he goes on to have a stormer of a loan but is now bound by a contract in which he will be underpaid. What if he hates the area or a better offer turns up elsewhere. I struggle to see the benefit to the player. Couldn’t you say the same things about a permanent transfer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rightdm00 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, penguin said: Couldn’t you say the same things about a permanent transfer? No. That would be a player negotiating his current deal and future one at the same time. Coutinho already has a deal with us that expires at the end of the season. Why would he not just wait til the summer to negotiate his next deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Mark Albrighton said: Because what would typically happen is a loan player does well, the player enjoys their time there, the buying club takes up the option. You aren’t going to have many examples of an option to buy where the player has a rotten time of it and the buying club says “Yep, we fancy some more of that!”. Generally a player will ultimately sign on a permanent contract if a loan has gone well. It’s not a perfect example as it was more complicated because he was out of contract at Man Utd, but Villa had an option to buy Tom Cleverley. The way Sherwood bemoaned his loss, it seems like we wanted to keep him. However our option to buy didn’t stop him buggering off to Everton though. I highly doubt Coutinho has an obligation to sign a permanent contract with us. the point of having an option to buy clause, is that coutinho essentially already has agreed a permanent contract with us we just get to choose whether or not it is turned permanent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said: It makes zero sense for a player to pre-negotiate a multi-year contract with his loan club. What if he goes on to have a stormer of a loan but is now bound by a contract in which he will be underpaid. What if he hates the area or a better offer turns up elsewhere. I struggle to see the benefit to the player. It makes zero sense for a player to sign a 5 year deal with a club. What if he has a stormer in his first year and wants to play for Real Madrid at £400k per week instead? What if he doesn't like the club after he's signed? I struggle to see the benefit for the player in signing a long term contract. Edited February 5, 2022 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 10 minutes ago, tomav84 said: the point of having an option to buy clause, is that coutinho essentially already has agreed a permanent contract with us we just get to choose whether or not it is turned permanent Thank you. I don't understand why people can't seperate signing on the dotted line with a pre agreed clause from signing a permanent deal. A contract is a contract, just because its staged differently makes no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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