eholm Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 5 hours ago, Delphinho123 said: An open question to all V’talkers: Free kicks aside (not discounting their value to a team) is he better in open play than McGinn, Nakamba and Luiz? I think it’s pretty clear by now (and has been for quite some time now) that DS just doesn’t favour a physical dominant CDM. As has been mentioned numerous times, he has NEVER bought this type of player. DS has always been a possession based manager who believes that if you have the ball the opposition can’t score. Therefore the CDM will primarily be more of a deep lying CM who has the ability to intercept effectively through their reading of the game, decent in the tackle but above all else can retain possession and initiate attacks from the base of that middle third. He will also be very comfortable in taking the ball off the CBs and progressing it forwards. Thus would then also reduce the amount of ‘Mings-ball’ required. Another key attribute is game intelligence with the player able to demonstrate discipline to hold their position and the ability to cover defenders when they need support or have ventured forward. With that in mind, JWP is precisely the type of player that he wants and why Marv never will be, IMO. If the price is acceptable we sign JWP. If not, I think DS May hope that Luiz develops and improves in all the above attributes to make that position his own. Personally, I don’t agree with Dean and see that dominant physical presence as a key missing link for us. However, Dean has his own philosophies and I can’t see him changing those anytime soon. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killeen30 Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 5 hours ago, Delphinho123 said: An open question to all V’talkers: Free kicks aside (not discounting their value to a team) is he better in open play than McGinn, Nakamba and Luiz? I’ve genuinely never paid that much attention to him, set pieces aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Afro Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 7 minutes ago, Tommo_b said: It’s this damning?! McGinn scored a total of 3 goals last season… thats 5 less than, McGinn assisted 5, that’s 2 less, so JWP contributed 7 more goals than McGinn whilst in an inferior team. Can you imagine how many more goals we would’ve scored with JWP in the squad last season with all the fouls we had won. Hopefully Bailey has a knack of winning free kicks too if we pick up JWP. But we’ve now got Bailey and Young who can take free kicks well. Not JWP levels but well enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted August 19, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted August 19, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Trey has spoken. Edited August 19, 2021 by sidcow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 16 minutes ago, eholm said: As has been mentioned numerous times, he has NEVER bought this type of player. Didn’t ‘he’ buy Nakamba? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummybloke Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 9 hours ago, TrentVilla said: I'd rather we sign Bissouma than JWP but there is no doubt in my mind that JWP would improve our midfield and I really think we need to improve our midfield. Is he worth £50m? I've no idea what players are worth these days and I don't much care. If we sign him we've a better chance of progressing than if we don't and that is all I'm bothered about. Ideally both would complete us. JWP would get the extra protection to excell, the defence would get extra protection and we stand more chance of keeping possession. 90 million to secure the middle of the park for 3 or more seasons seems good value for money. We are changing how we play due to our main play maker leaving, we either do it straight away and have 5 or 6 games getting everything into place or we have 1 or 2 seasons where the midfield is not right. The money side of it seems to scare people, either we spend it or nothing happens with it and we don't push on. We aren't in the lucky position to gamble on exotic names from other leagues hoping they come good, we need the tried and trusted already established performers now. Once we have stabilisation, then the 1 million pound French division 8 players can be signed without everyone expecting its the next kante. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villastine Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 6 hours ago, Delphinho123 said: An open question to all V’talkers: Free kicks aside (not discounting their value to a team) is he better in open play than McGinn, Nakamba and Luiz? Take away his set piece quality and you're left with a slow but hard working sideways passer. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyexists Posted August 19, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted August 19, 2021 9 hours ago, TrentVilla said: I'd rather we sign Bissouma than JWP but there is no doubt in my mind that JWP would improve our midfield and I really think we need to improve our midfield. Is he worth £50m? I've no idea what players are worth these days and I don't much care. If we sign him we've a better chance of progressing than if we don't and that is all I'm bothered about. That’s a really good point. I’m at this point too I think, I really have no idea how much players are worth anymore, I suppose they’re worth is only really assessable in hindsight anyway. Was Darren Bent worth it? Probably. Was N’Zogbia. Nope. But at the time it was what we had to pay to get that player. I think it’s so obvious to everyone that we need a better DM, Nakamba has good days but we need better to progress I think. I still don’t think Luiz is a proper DM either. JWP on the other hand would probably compete with, and replace, McGinn which I have mixed feelings over, but he would improve us as a side there is no doubt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Tommo_b said: It’s this damning?! McGinn scored a total of 3 goals last season… thats 5 less than, McGinn assisted 5, that’s 2 less, so JWP contributed 7 more goals than McGinn whilst in an inferior team. Can you imagine how many more goals we would’ve scored with JWP in the squad last season with all the fouls we had won. Hopefully Bailey has a knack of winning free kicks too if we pick up JWP. Firstly, I was only talking about goals from non-deadball situations since that was Delphinho's question. Still, calling it damning may have been too harsh. What I meant to say was that almost all of his offensive output comes from deadball situations, whilst his actual offensive contribution in open play is rather minimal. His actual goal and assist total can be misleading at first glance because of this. Secondly, even if you want to include dead ball situations I'd still say you should ignore penalties to which he scored 3 last season. He would've effectively only contributed 4 more goals than Mcginn last season then. Thirdly, I don't buy into the "Imagine how much better this player would be if he played for a better team" arguments. I'll just say, football is rarely that simple and there have been many players who've failed to make the step up after being bought by a superior team just as there have been players who have succeeded. Fourthly, Southampton drew 421 fouls last season compared to our 556 fouls. JWP scored 4 direct free kick goals and 3 assists from free kicks that season. That's 1 direct free kick goal every 105 fouls drawn and 1 assist every 140 fouls drawn. Very crudely and with a lot of assumptions, if he had played for us he would've gotten 5 direct free kick goals and 4 assists instead. Again, the calculations are very crude but the main point here is that despite drawing more than 100 fouls more than Southampton last season, if JWP's free kick goal and assist rates remained constant(and a whole lot of otehr assumptions), he would only have 1 more goal and 1 more assist. Of course add that to his original talley and lets say he replaces Mcginn in the starting lineup so we'd have 6 more goal contributions ignoring penalties with him in the team last season. Lastly, Bailey won quite a lot of fouls last season but still no where near to the level of Grealish obviously. Edited August 19, 2021 by Laughable Chimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterSw Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said: Firstly, I was only talking about goals from non-deadball situations since that was Delphinho's question. Still, calling it damning may have been too harsh. What I meant to say was that almost all of his offensive output comes from deadball situations, whilst his actual offensive contribution in open play is rather minimal. His actual goal and assist total can be misleading at first glance because of this. Secondly, even if you want to include dead ball situations I'd still say you should ignore penalties to which he scored 3 last season. He would've effectively only contributed 4 more goals than Mcginn last season then. Thirdly, I don't buy into the "Imagine how much better this player would be if he played for a better team" arguments. I'll just say, football is rarely that simple and there have been many players who've failed to make the step up after being bought by a superior team just as there have been players who have succeeded. Fourthly, Southampton drew 421 fouls last season compared to our 556 fouls. JWP scored 4 direct free kick goals and 3 assists from free kicks that season. That's 1 direct free kick goal every 105 fouls drawn and 1 assist every 140 fouls drawn. Very crudely and with a lot of assumptions, if he had played for us he would've gotten 5 direct free kick goals and 4 assists instead. Again, the calculations are very crude but the main point here is that despite drawing more than 100 fouls more than Southampton last season, if JWP's free kick goal and assist rates remained constant(and a whole lot of otehr assumptions), he would only have 1 more goal and 1 more assist. Lastly, Bailey won quite a lot of fouls last season but still no where near to the level of Grealish obviously. Do you have a stat for the amount of goals scored/assisted from direct free kicks for us from last season? If JWP can give us an extra 8-10 goals a season from free-kicks, they could prove crucial to our league position. In terms of the £40-50m price tag, if we can afford it and not mess up FFP, go for it. Transfer fees are only going up. Edited August 19, 2021 by PeterSw 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 Talking of winning fouls I wonder how many Grealish would have won for this season now the refs don’t seem to be giving the soft ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterw Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Talking of winning fouls I wonder how many Grealish would have won for this season now the refs don’t seem to be giving the soft ones. That diving ****? Who cares. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 10 hours ago, It's Your Round said: Why would we be paying him in Euros? Or is that the now commonly accepted currency of fake ITKs? Surprised he's not being paid in bitcoin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pas5898 Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 26 minutes ago, Villastine said: Take away his set piece quality and you're left with a slow but hard working sideways passer. Will fit into this team perfectly after Watford then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 6 hours ago, Aston_Villan4 said: Just McGinn but @Zhan_Zhuang compared them Absolutely.. The one thing that really bugged me about McGinn was his wastefulness with possession of the ball. Ward-Prowse would really change us for the better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted August 19, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted August 19, 2021 30 minutes ago, Villastine said: Take away his set piece quality and you're left with a slow but hard working sideways passer. Blonde Ashley Westwood, you're just a blonde Ashley Westwood, blonde Ashley Weeeeestwoooood, you're just a blonde Ashley Westwood! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 50m is way to much but we spent it I think it would show the owners are prepared to spend that bit extra to keep us progressing rather than wait for better value that may not hit the ground running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyexists Posted August 19, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted August 19, 2021 39 minutes ago, Villastine said: Take away his set piece quality and you're left with a slow but hard working sideways passer. But why would we be taking that away? Would he be leaving his free kick ability at Southampton? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 I also think Ward-Prowse should have gone to the Euros and played more. The balance of Ward-Prowse and Rice would have been better. Phillips was good but disappeared at times and was wasteful with the ball especially in the final (England struggled with possession against Italy). England also obviously fluffed a few free-kick and penalty opportunities which in hindsight Ward-Prowse would likely have more positive outcomes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted August 19, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted August 19, 2021 7 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: 50m is way to much but we spent it I think it would show the owners are prepared to spend that bit extra to keep us progressing rather than wait for better value that may not hit the ground running. 50m is the going rate. we'd be asking that for mings if someone came knocking. club captain with england caps 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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