What is Anti-Semitism?

[Rugeley Villa]

Whilst at a meeting the other week there was a catholic bloke there who serves on the medical side of the MOD. He was wearing a Green IDF T-shirt. This was the day after it really kicked off . It confused me. 

[chrisp65]

17 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I'm not labelling people - major Jewish newspapers are - Labour have kicked out a sizeable majority of Jewish people who are branded left wing - there are multiple connections between British Jewry and Israel - I'm open to be educated but can anybody spell out the relationship? I've been told there isn't one. 

‘Major’ Jewish newspapers?

The Jewish Chronicle has an ABC audited circulation figure of 12,000 copies a week. Of which 6,000 are distributed for free. If 6,000 people are paying for a weekly newspaper I think that struggles with the title ‘major’. The Jewish telegraph doesn’t have audited circulation figures, but a quick check of the website shows it hasn’t been updated in over a month, which given present circumstances suggests its not a ‘major’ player.

I wouldn’t be overly worried being labelled as something by the Jewish press.

Can’t really comment on Labour too much, I lost interest in them quite some time back, but where have you got the figures where they’ve thrown out a sizeable majority of left wing Jews? How have you come by that figure or per centage? Do you have to declare race and religion on Labour membership.

[Jareth]

4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

‘Major’ Jewish newspapers?

The Jewish Chronicle has an ABC audited circulation figure of 12,000 copies a week. Of which 6,000 are distributed for free. If 6,000 people are paying for a weekly newspaper I think that struggles with the title ‘major’. The Jewish telegraph doesn’t have audited circulation figures, but a quick check of the website shows it hasn’t been updated in over a month, which given present circumstances suggests its not a ‘major’ player.

I wouldn’t be overly worried being labelled as something by the Jewish press.

Can’t really comment on Labour too much, I lost interest in them quite some time back, but where have you got the figures where they’ve thrown out a sizeable majority of left wing Jews? How have you come by that figure or per centage? Do you have to declare race and religion on Labour membership.

First attempt to find it but there's this - https://policymogul.com/key-updates/13485/-large-and-growing-number-of-jewish-members-of-labour-party-suspended-or-investigated-over-antisemitism- 

“We are appalled by the large and growing number of Jewish members of the Labour Party - including ourselves - who have recently been subject to disciplinary proceedings related to alleged antisemitism."

This is going OT - apologies mods. 

[mjmooney]

People have a tendency to be tribal. It's hardly a surprise that many (most?) British Jews feel an affinity with Israel. Equally, it's hardly a surprise that many (most?) British Muslims feel an affinity with Palestine. They may or may not feel uncomfortable with the activities of Hamas or the IDF, but there is always the underlying feeling of "Yes, but THEY started it". 

Whatever we in this country - Jews, Muslims, Christians, atheists, left, right, whatever - may think or say, we're having a debate about it at a safe distance. Over there on the ground, it's a cesspit of violence and hatred going back too many generations to be solved by respectful negotiation. 

 

[Rugeley Villa]

Do most Jews in the uk support Spurs ? Spurs have always had good support and also money. My grandad used to say they are a very big club and part of that reason is the Jewish links and being a London club 

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Do most Jews in the uk support Spurs ? Spurs have always had good support and also money. My grandad used to say they are a very big club and part of that reason is the Jewish links and being a London club 

No they're shit

[chrisp65]

29 minutes ago, Jareth said:

First attempt to find it but there's this - https://policymogul.com/key-updates/13485/-large-and-growing-number-of-jewish-members-of-labour-party-suspended-or-investigated-over-antisemitism- 

“We are appalled by the large and growing number of Jewish members of the Labour Party - including ourselves - who have recently been subject to disciplinary proceedings related to alleged antisemitism."

This is going OT - apologies mods. 

You said majority, you’ve posted a link naming eleven.

Am I to presume there were twenty left wing Jews in the Labour Party?

It’s that sort of thing that can look like anti semitism, you’ve seen a website that says something, and you’ve tweeked it to say something it didn’t.

[Jareth]

8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

You said majority, you’ve posted a link naming eleven.

Am I to presume there were twenty left wing Jews in the Labour Party?

It’s that sort of thing that can look like anti semitism, you’ve seen a website that says something, and you’ve tweeked it to say something it didn’t.

TBH I’m being lazy - posted the first link off Google. Will dive into it later if you want.

[Rugeley Villa]

6 minutes ago, Jareth said:

TBH I’m being lazy - posted the first link off Google. Will dive into it later if you want.

There’s no room for laziness in a good honest political debate 

[Jareth]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

You said majority, you’ve posted a link naming eleven.

Am I to presume there were twenty left wing Jews in the Labour Party?

It’s that sort of thing that can look like anti semitism, you’ve seen a website that says something, and you’ve tweeked it to say something it didn’t.

Majority was wrong - memory is bad clearly - word should have been disproportionate. BTW - why does it appear antisemitic, to get a word wrong?

Last week a report on Labour's handling of the anti-Semitism row under Jeremy Corbyn found supporters and critics had used it as a "factional weapon".

Mr McDonnell claims the report shows the party used its disciplinary procedures to target members of the pro-Corbyn Jewish Voice for Labour (JVL)

He said a disproportionate number of JVL members had been disciplined, suspended and expelled from the party.

Members of the group were up to 35 times more likely to face anti-Semitism investigations than other, mostly non-Jewish, Labour members, he claimed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62319342

Edited November 12, 2023 by Jareth

[bickster]

19 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Majority was wrong - memory is bad clearly - word should have been disproportionate. BTW - why does it appear antisemitic, to get a word wrong?

Last week a report on Labour's handling of the anti-Semitism row under Jeremy Corbyn found supporters and critics had used it as a "factional weapon".

Mr McDonnell claims the report shows the party used its disciplinary procedures to target members of the pro-Corbyn Jewish Voice for Labour (JVL)

He said a disproportionate number of JVL members had been disciplined, suspended and expelled from the party.

Members of the group were up to 35 times more likely to face anti-Semitism investigations than other, mostly non-Jewish, Labour members, he claimed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62319342

Any actual evidence other than John McDonnell says so?

JVL is a very small minority of members of the Labour Party that identify as Jewish, the very article you’ve just quoted and linked to even tells you that

You'll also notice McDonnell claims it’s a disproportionate amount of JVL members but even he doesn’t claim what you are claiming “a disproportionate amount of Jews”.

Its like you aren’t able to get past your own pre-conceptions

[Jareth]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

Any actual evidence other than John McDonnell says so?

JVL is a very small minority of members of the Labour Party that identify as Jewish, the very article you’ve just quoted and linked to even tells you that

You'll also notice McDonnell claims it’s a disproportionate amount of JVL members but even he doesn’t claim what you are claiming “a disproportionate amount of Jews”.

Its like you aren’t able to get past your own pre-conceptions

Sorry - what does JVL stand for? And yes, I trust McDonnell, he's always made sense and you'll notice he's a Labour MP under Starmer, clearly not AS is he? 

[bickster]

21 minutes ago, Jareth said:

what does JVL stand for?

You know perfectly well what it stands for both in name and policies. You also know it is a VERY small faction of the Labour Party and even a very small percentage of members of the Labour Party that identify as being Jewish.

I don’t care that you trust McDonnell, I trust facts, you've presented none that are relevant to your claim.

Facts, numbers, percentages not hearsay.

[Jareth]

21 minutes ago, bickster said:

You know perfectly well what it stands for both in name and policies. You also know it is a VERY small faction of the Labour Party and even a very small percentage of members of the Labour Party that identify as being Jewish.

I don’t care that you trust McDonnell, I trust facts, you've presented none that are relevant to your claim.

Facts, numbers, percentages not hearsay.

Labour do not publish their membership stats. JM is a senior member. It ain’t hearsay. 

[bickster]

2 hours ago, Jareth said:

Labour do not publish their membership stats.

well we're getting somewhere at least, you're now admitting you can't prove your claim.

Talking of John McDonnell, that you trust…

Quote

[…] “Numerically, the number of cases of anti-Semitism within the Labour party might be small, but that’s not the issue. It’s the pain,” he said.

“The point that Jeremy made ages ago, ‘one anti-Semite in the Labour Party is too many’. So you don’t calculate the numbers, you calculate the pain that’s inflicted, and that’s been immense.” […]

[…] “

“The anti-Semitism issue has been a nightmare, we’ve got to come out of this nightmare. it’s been a really dark night,” he said.

“Mistakes have been made, we accepted that. Apologies have been made time and time again and I repeat, even now the number of apologies we’ve made to the Jewish community and we need to keep on apologising to them as well.” […]

[…]

Or maybe you're more of. Jon Lansman fan (brought up in an Orthodox Jewish family)…

Quote

“I’ve had lots of antisemitic abuse. I am hurt by that. The hurt has not been exaggerated. The hurt is real. So I think Jeremy’s words were not right. I disagree with them,” Lansman said.

 

All quotes in the same HuffPost article

[Mic09]

20 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Do most Jews in the uk support Spurs ? Spurs have always had good support and also money. My grandad used to say they are a very big club and part of that reason is the Jewish links and being a London club 

I think this is a generalisation that comes with the overall topic of Judaism.

For such a small group of people, it's crazy how many different groups of Jews they are and how many different views they have.

You have the converting Jews (and most Jews claim they are not Jews), Jews that have been born to a Jewish family but show no religiousness whatsoever, you have the easy going Jews, the orthodox, the Hassidic (who are probably the most Jewish  of Jews yet many are anti Zionist).

There are a million shapes and sizes.

I reckon just as with other ethnicities and religions, most football fans have different teams they support - it's a bit like saying most Catholics want Argentina to win because of the pope.  

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Mic09

[Jareth]

This is a case study, obviously left wing, of Germany and Israel's relationship. It's far more pronounced due to the Germans' notorious past - but a case study nonetheless of how various levels of German society including its Jewish population, react toward the current events in Gaza. Nobody comes off particularly well, looks like the same old story from politicians who say what they deem necessary, others are just stuck. Would like to see something from a UK perspective if such a thing exists. As others have pointed out there are lots of Jewish perspectives in the UK.

I’ve lived in Germany for nearly a decade now, but the only people with whom I’ve ever been able to discuss the conflict in the Middle East are Israelis and Palestinians. Germans tend to cut off any attempt at constructive conversation with the much-favoured phrase that topic is much too complicated. As a result, the understandings I’ve reached about the geopolitical developments of the past three decades are the result of private conversations, safely tucked away from the judgmental eyes of a German society eager to lecture us on how any criticism of Israel is antisemitic.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/13/germany-jewish-criticise-israel-tv-debate

[magnkarl]

23 minutes ago, Jareth said:

This is a case study, obviously left wing, of Germany and Israel's relationship. It's far more pronounced due to the Germans' notorious past - but a case study nonetheless of how various levels of German society including its Jewish population, react toward the current events in Gaza. Nobody comes off particularly well, looks like the same old story from politicians who say what they deem necessary, others are just stuck. Would like to see something from a UK perspective if such a thing exists. As others have pointed out there are lots of Jewish perspectives in the UK.

I’ve lived in Germany for nearly a decade now, but the only people with whom I’ve ever been able to discuss the conflict in the Middle East are Israelis and Palestinians. Germans tend to cut off any attempt at constructive conversation with the much-favoured phrase that topic is much too complicated. As a result, the understandings I’ve reached about the geopolitical developments of the past three decades are the result of private conversations, safely tucked away from the judgmental eyes of a German society eager to lecture us on how any criticism of Israel is antisemitic.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/13/germany-jewish-criticise-israel-tv-debate

Again, you seem to add so much weight to a personal story from one or two Jews about being called radical by someone else. This woman lives in a liberal democracy and has no one 'silencing her'. She has every right to say what she likes, and everyone else has a right to challenge her. The mere case of her being allowed to write a badly worded article in both one of Germany's and Britain's largest rags suggests otherwise. If she's offended by being asked to defend her standpoint, then I'm not sure why she's so keen on broadcasting it.

I don't know why you keep trying to generalise whole Jewish populations based on one-offs you've heard, this lady does not speak for every Jew in Germany. You seem to struggle with the concept of people having different views even if they're from the same ethnic group.

The only thing radical about this saga is that a lot of people on the left and right have issues separating Jews from Israel, even if they like myself have never even been to Israel and have no need to ever go there. Jews don't need to be hassled by pro-Hamas\Islamic fundamentalists\far left lunatics when out and about and we don't need to be defended by Tommy bloody Robinson who espouses many of the views that almost wiped out our kind in the 1930-40's. I don't know why it's so hard to understand. Hate crime against Jews in London is up over a 1000% since this 'war' started, I think you need to have a think about these things, likely while talking with someone about what racism is because you seem to misunderstand what almost everyone replying to you are saying.

Edited November 13, 2023 by magnkarl

[VILLAMARV]

On 11/11/2023 at 23:06, Jareth said:

Yeah, cool. But they acquiesce - they don't attack, unless they are brave - and there are lots of brave British jews, only they have previously been told they are anti semitic. 

What does this argument even mean? Isn't it just the same argument as saying if you are british and weren't at the marches the other day you acquiesce? Because you haven't made a public declaration? I condemn a lot of things on VT that I wont be making a public declaration on. Does that mean I'm also in this group of acquiessence? I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make.

Soft Power is surely often the least problematic.

On 11/11/2023 at 23:31, Jareth said:

Where is the level of critical condemnation from supporters of Israel? There is no healthy criticism is there, because anyone with critical thought is ostracised - that is the shittiest thing about Israel - there are powerful groups at the top of it who put pressure on others. And that extends  to the UK.  

Why would supporters of them condemn them? - they're supporters of them.

I'm obviously pretty vocal on this site about bias in the media. And I don't believe there is much healthy criticism in our media of the state of Israel either, but then I obviously don't agree with the absolutisms in your post and if im really honest, I flat out dislike the puppet masters of fleet street inference. It's just massively oversimplifying the situation and I can see little reason to do so other than to continually 'not get' what people are saying to you about the way you're choosing to word your posts. Our intelligence communities, Industrial Military Complexes and so on are interwoven. There's a shared agenda on the international stage. None of that suggests a controlling hand from the end of the Med. That we have built a world of global information corporations has little to do with the condemnation (or not) of Israel.

On 11/11/2023 at 23:38, Jareth said:

May I add, the Scots, the Welsh, and certainly the Irish, think Israel is full of shit. But somehow the bigots in England speak for the UK. 

There's a lesson there in where the real power lies in our political system but I don't think it's the one you're trying to make.

21 hours ago, Jareth said:

I'm open to be educated

When though?

[Mic09]

56 minutes ago, Jareth said:

This is a case study, obviously left wing, of Germany and Israel's relationship. It's far more pronounced due to the Germans' notorious past - but a case study nonetheless of how various levels of German society including its Jewish population, react toward the current events in Gaza. Nobody comes off particularly well, looks like the same old story from politicians who say what they deem necessary, others are just stuck. Would like to see something from a UK perspective if such a thing exists. As others have pointed out there are lots of Jewish perspectives in the UK.

I’ve lived in Germany for nearly a decade now, but the only people with whom I’ve ever been able to discuss the conflict in the Middle East are Israelis and Palestinians. Germans tend to cut off any attempt at constructive conversation with the much-favoured phrase that topic is much too complicated. As a result, the understandings I’ve reached about the geopolitical developments of the past three decades are the result of private conversations, safely tucked away from the judgmental eyes of a German society eager to lecture us on how any criticism of Israel is antisemitic.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/13/germany-jewish-criticise-israel-tv-debate

On the subject, when I was at Uni we visited a Midlands based orthodox Synagogue and spent some time with the Rabbi.

We went on to the holocaust topic, and he said that 'His foot would never ever stand on German soil'.

I thought it was an interesting take.