VT’s Music Chat

[mjmooney]

2 hours ago, Seat68 said:

Brilliant Corners spring to mind. Not a good thing. 

I've never forgiven them for sullying the name of my favourite Thelonius Monk album. 

[Marka Ragnos]

Yes, @bickster and @Seat68,  poor Hollow Men -- not too memorable. Second-wave Madchester-via-Leeds that never made inroads. They got dropped by Arista after one album, so that says something. I liked them a bit in the early 1990s, but the music never had much staying power with me, personally. Back then, I was crazy about Wedding Present and Ride.

You perhaps had to be in America in the 70s really to grasp the coolness of KISS at their masked peak -- and you had to be an 11-year-old boy lol. Their first two or three albums hold up, if you ask me. Totally influenced by British glam.

[chrisp65]

9 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Yes, @bickster and @Seat68,  poor Hollow Men -- not too memorable. Second-wave Madchester-via-Leeds that never made inroads. They got dropped by Arista after one album, so that says something. I liked them a bit in the early 1990s, but the music never had much staying power with me, personally. Back then, I was crazy about Wedding Present and Ride.

You perhaps had to be in America in the 70s really to grasp the coolness of KISS at their masked peak -- and you had to be an 11-year-old boy lol. Their first two or three albums hold up, if you ask me. Totally influenced by British glam.

I think Kiss were a marketing and merchandising vehicle from day one. So, I don’t think they were ever or could ever have been cool in the sense of the word that we’d understand most bands to be cool. They were never ever underground or subversive or new in any significant way other than monetisation.

I can see how they can have looked cool to an 11 year old. That was, after all, the target market, 11 year olds of all ages. You like ‘loud’? You like ‘scary outfits’? You like wrestling? Fake blood? Dry ice? You heard of boobies? Well kids, you’re gonna love this band!

[Rugeley Villa]

Those early Kiss albums are really good.  They rocked and were huge in the states during the mid to late 70s. Great marketing ploy .  They opened for sabbath in 75/76 and they freaked geezer butler out. Ozzy and Tony both said although they were not their type of thing they were hard to follow when they first came out because the theatrics.  Alice Cooper band were top dogs for that though, what a band that was. 

[Marka Ragnos]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

I think Kiss were a marketing and merchandising vehicle from day one. So, I don’t think they were ever or could ever have been cool in the sense of the word that we’d understand most bands to be cool. They were never ever underground or subversive or new in any significant way other than monetisation.

I can see how they can have looked cool to an 11 year old. That was, after all, the target market, 11 year olds of all ages. You like ‘loud’? You like ‘scary outfits’? You like wrestling? Fake blood? Dry ice? You heard of boobies? Well kids, you’re gonna love this band!

Can't argue. It's interesting because Stanley and Simmons really toyed around with marketing and logos and really the notion of branding, partly taking their cue from the Monkees, the Partridge Family, Josie and the Pussycats, etc. KISS lunchboxes in the States were huge. I mean, Simmons was always very open about all that -- he wanted to make money. We all had cloth patches on our denim jackets, school book covers, etc. Innovative and cynical, I suppose -- and successful.

1 hour ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Those early Kiss albums are really good.  They rocked and were huge in the states during the mid to late 70s. Great marketing ploy .  They opened for sabbath in 75/76 and they freaked geezer butler out. Ozzy and Tony both said although they were not their type of thing they were hard to follow when they first came out because the theatrics.  Alice Cooper band were top dogs for that though, what a band that was. 

I agree -- I still loved Rock and Roll Over but that was kind of the line where the music wasn't as good and it all just became a cartoon afterwards. Alice Cooper were interesting, and quite a few kids who didn't go in for KISS loved them. Much, much darker than KISS, more substance in the lyrics, a lot more social commentary, etc. I think it went over the heads of most younger teenagers, but not all.

Edited August 16 by Marka Ragnos

[Nor-Cal Villan]

36 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Can't argue. It's interesting because Stanley and Simmons really toyed around with marketing and logos and really the notion of branding, partly taking their cue from the Monkees, the Partridge Family, Josie and the Pussycats, etc. KISS lunchboxes in the States were huge. I mean, Simmons was always very open about all that -- he wanted to make money. We all had cloth patches on our denim jackets, school book covers, etc. Innovative and cynical, I suppose -- and successful.

I agree -- I still loved Rock and Roll Over but that was kind of the line where the music wasn't as good and it all just became a cartoon afterwards. Alice Cooper were interesting, and quite a few kids who didn't go in for KISS loved them. Much, much darker than KISS, more substance in the lyrics, a lot more social commentary, etc. I think it went over the heads of most younger teenagers, but not all.

And now you can pay $$$ to be buried in a Kiss Kasket

[Nor-Cal Villan]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

I think Kiss were a marketing and merchandising vehicle from day one. So, I don’t think they were ever or could ever have been cool in the sense of the word that we’d understand most bands to be cool. They were never ever underground or subversive or new in any significant way other than monetisation.

I can see how they can have looked cool to an 11 year old. That was, after all, the target market, 11 year olds of all ages. You like ‘loud’? You like ‘scary outfits’? You like wrestling? Fake blood? Dry ice? You heard of boobies? Well kids, you’re gonna love this band!

I still hate my parents for not letting me have this when I was 10

[Rugeley Villa]

Gene Simmons is a very clever guy . 

[mjmooney]

Kiss were shit. Alice Cooper were good. 

Note the plurals. 

Edited August 16 by mjmooney

[Mark Albrighton]

Prompted by the Elvis Presley chat elsewhere, I find this article interesting (although I have the sense the author probably isn’t the biggest fan anyway).

It does feel like he’s lost relevance over the last 10-20 years. As the article says elsewhere this is going to happen, but it does feel a bit more pronounced with Elvis. 

Even silly things like tv shows or films doing a “I’ve just seen Elvis…” type gag, it doesn’t really happen anymore. 
 

Quote

The critics who wrote about Elvis after his death in 1977, at the age of 42, would be astonished that his reputation would ever require such a booster injection. To them he was synonymous with not just rock’n’roll but American culture. Remarking on the atomisation of rock fandom, Lester Bangs wrote in his obituary: “I can guarantee you one thing: we will never again agree on anything as we agreed on Elvis.” Greil Marcus went further in his 1991 book Dead Elvis, comparing the cultural impact of Elvis’s death to the passing of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. “Elvis did not simply change musical history, though of course he did that. He changed history as such, and in doing so became history.” Public Enemy’s Chuck D delivered a colossal backhanded compliment in 1989’s Fight the Powerwhen he rapped “Elvis was a hero to most but he never meant shit to me”. Chuck needed to attack a symbol of monolithic white American culture and that could only be Elvis. To dismiss him so heretically was to acknowledge his stature.

Marcus was right to say that Elvis became history but that’s not the same thing as retaining relevance for new generations. The rock’n’roll of the Fifties, which has long been sidelined even on US classic-rock radio, feels ancient, like a black-and-white movie. Even from that era, none of Elvis’s songs have the undeniable visceral jolt of Tutti Frutti or Great Balls of Fire. You have to imagine your way back to a more sedate time to apprehend the youthquake mayhem caused by Hound Dog and Jailhouse Rock. The fact that Elvis didn’t write his own songs (not unusual at the time) increases this sense of temporal otherness, placing him closer to Frank Sinatra than the Beatles. Or perhaps Marilyn Monroe: an icon who your grandparents wanted to sleep with. He doesn’t have that one classic album that sells to each new generation like Rumours or Blue do. And the idea that he was just a pretty white boy who appropriated rock’n’roll from far more talented black artists, though grossly simplistic, has become received wisdom. For all these reasons, he is seen as more of a historical event than an enduring inspiration.

Unherd link

It also made me realise that I do indeed think of Elvis in a similar way to how I think of Marilyn Monroe or even JFK and not how I think of, say, Buddy Holly.

[Nor-Cal Villan]

5 hours ago, mjmooney said:

Kiss were shit. Alice Cooper were good. 

Note the plurals. 

Alice Cooper absolutely great band! I got to hang out with him in 89 or 90 and he was one of the nicest people you’d ever want to meet. The run of albums from Love it to Death to Welcome to My Nightmare is hard to beat. Billion Dollar Babies is my favorite of the bunch, at least right at this very moment 

[Xann]

There was an Elvis shop in London until around 15/20 years ago.

The UK Elvis fanzine is still going, as is the Rock N Roll fanzine 'Now Dig This'.

 

https://www.nowdigthismagazine.co.uk/

It's feasible Elvis could have a revival, a cool movie might do it?

[Designer1]

8 hours ago, Nor-Cal Villan said:

Alice Cooper absolutely great band! I got to hang out with him in 89 or 90 and he was one of the nicest people you’d ever want to meet. The run of albums from Love it to Death to Welcome to My Nightmare is hard to beat. Billion Dollar Babies is my favorite of the bunch, at least right at this very moment 

We can definitely be friends 

(Love Alice and that early run of albums is absolutely golden)

[Rugeley Villa]

I’d put early Alice Cooper up there with anything before during or after . They were as good as anything around at the time. 

[Rugeley Villa]

As for Elvis I worm-holed on him last night. Late performances and interviews etc. Made me feel quite sad for him. 

[mjmooney]

Just now, Rugeley Villa said:

I’d put early Alice Cooper up there with anything before during or after . They were as good as anything around at the time. 

Their early recordings were very influenced by The Who. Just listen to 'Elected' - the vocal could be Roger Daltrey, the guitar riff is straight out of 'Substitute', etc. 

[chrisp65]

636 Vegas shows, at a rate of 2 a day, 7 days a week then a break then again and again for years.

The shows, I guess, would have started off with a state of relative fitness, he’s trim he’s jokey, you see a move a few times where he lowers himself to almost at the ground then raises himself back up, slowly, whilst singing. Have a go at that, it’s quite impressive. Then I guess fatigue sets in, you need a little something to get you prepped up, then you’ll need a little something to get you back down and able to sleep, then up again there’s a matinee performance to do. That knee hurting? Take this. Throat a bit off, take this. Need to sleep, need to wake up, need to sleep, need need… and then bang. Elvis has left the building.

Edited August 17 by chrisp65

[Rugeley Villa]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

Their early recordings were very influenced by The Who. Just listen to 'Elected' - the vocal could be Roger Daltrey, the guitar riff is straight out of 'Substitute', etc. 

Yeah he loved The Who . 

[Rugeley Villa]

7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

636 Vegas shows, at a rate of 2 a day, 7 days a week then a break then again and again for years.

The shows, I guess, would have started off with a state of relative fitness, he’s trim he’s jokey, you see a move a few times where he lowers himself to almost at the ground then raises himself back up, slowly, whilst singing. Have a go at that, it’s quite impressive. Then I guess fatigue sets in, you need a little something to get you prepped up, then you’ll need a little something to get you back down and able to sleep, then up again there’s a matinee performance to do. That knee hurting? Take this. Throat a bit off, take this. Need to sleep, need to wake up, need to sleep, need need… and then bang. Elvis has left the building.

He had a massive drug problem but yeah you’re right with how you describe it. 

[Nor-Cal Villan]

6 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said:

As for Elvis I worm-holed on him last night. Late performances and interviews etc. Made me feel quite sad for him. 

Jerry absolutely nails it here. The industry, his own “support system,” and his fans all failed Elvis by not having the imagination to offer him something better than Las Vegas, endless touring, & an early grave

 

Edited August 17 by Nor-Cal Villan