VT’s Music Chat

[maqroll]

18 minutes ago, bickster said:

They started to be described as "White reggae" when the first two albums went massive

It was never really reggae though. It was sort of reggae adjacent. We can probably thank Andy Summers for preventing them from going full reggae because Sting and Copeland were clearly enamored with the style, but you could tell Summers didn't really feel the "vibes" 

[Xann]

Ozrics were on IRS in the US. Met Jay Boberg in London. He stood out at an Ozric gig.

Miles we met in New York. He barely registered tbh, it was when we did Alig's Slimelight club, I think?

The dressing room wasn't backstage with the luxury of security, it was part of the vast club, the punters could come in and hang out.

We met a lot of people that night.

[Seat68]

29 minutes ago, Xann said:

Ozrics were on IRS in the US. Met Jay Boberg in London. He stood out at an Ozric gig.

Miles we met in New York. He barely registered tbh, it was when we did Alig's Slimelight club, I think?

The dressing room wasn't backstage with the luxury of security, it was part of the vast club, the punters could come in and hang out.

We met a lot of people that night.

I have Erpland and Live Underslunky, neither of which have been played in decades, might scare my daughter by putting them on.

[bickster]

I've seen the Ozrics a few times, I think I'd be more appreciative of them now than I was then

[Xann]

Worked for the Ozrics straight out of college, then went deep Indie for a year, then a Pop studio that had 9 or 10 albums in the top 40 at one point.

The Indie and Pop years were fun, but from a musical perspective I wasn't learning much. The Ozrics and Eat Static were lightyears ahead of all the Indie fluff, and the vast majority of Pop.

Then one day the engineer that made 'Spirit Of Eden' came in. Now he was a level up from Ed   

Edited December 20, 2023 by Xann

[chrisp65]

 

 

Late present idea for the little lady in your life, £101 discount on ABBA vinyl.

 

[Seat68]

39 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

 

Late present idea for the little lady in your life, £101 discount on ABBA vinyl.

 

That's phenomenal. I have them on CD and part of me thinks get them on vinyl as well but realistically I would probably be divorced. 

[villa4europe]

unsurprisingly sold out

[bickster]

9 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

 

 

Late present idea for the little lady in your life, £101 discount on ABBA vinyl.

 

Sure it’s a gimmick to boost sales but they aren’t taking a hit at that price, probably still breaking even.

still compared to £60 for a single Talking Heads album….

[Xela]

7 years since George Michael died  

[AVFC_Hitz]

9 hours ago, Xela said:

7 years since George Michael died  

Seems like last Christmas.

[LondonLax]

Is this the best place to leave this

Quote

Nightmares on wax: the environmental impact of the vinyl revival

From toxic wastewater to greenhouse gas emissions, the boom in vinyl has dangerous effects 

https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2020/jan/28/vinyl-record-revival-environmental-impact-music-industry-streaming

[Xann]

On the left is a failed 14" press of a stereo master. This is the sort of disc your records are all made from, unless it's lathe cut, and they're usually crapper tbh.

I keep it as a reminder of how shit vinyl is as a container.

Vinyl fell further and further behind the capabilities of the stereo kit we had the studio. Proper quality analogue: SSL, Neve, Studer and Ampex. When clever digital processing came along, it just became silly.

We were attempting to cut Techno, trying push the boundaries - Into the future we go, in stereo! Or rather not.

Two of my friends have had similar experiences, and the same falling out when cutting their own records in the 30 years since my episode. One had a massive collection, he sold it all after his experience.

The massive irony is that the Dance music scene kept vinyl going, yet the most basic synth can make audio that can't be cut to vinyl. Most artists can't afford the mastering services that have the microscope on the cutting needle, and they're not even at the cut most of the time these days anyway. The mastering places can then use some license to get that audio into the groove. Most people, including the artists, just don't notice. We did notice, which is why we paid for the posh cut with microscope, and got the reveal, and a serious lesson.

Vinyl does have a special sauce, it falls under the science of the perception of sound, psychoacoustics. The record is getting the reproduction wrong, but in a way which is pleasant to the ear. Well, there's other psychoacoustic toys and methods you can employ that don't come with vinyl's handicaps. CD/AIFF doesn't help the mix, it's true, but it's not meant too, it's a container. The making it sound nice bit should have been done by the producer in the recording studio, when it was mixed for the different formats.

I spend quite a lot of time chatting about things that don't work properly that sound cool, with the people that understand the technology. Mr Pepe knows the tech and he likes to use all the space available. 'Phantom Cabinet' (I see Chris has mentioned it) on CD has twice the dynamic range of the vinyl and it's 20 minutes longer. That's someone that understands the difference between formats and how to get the best out of each of them.

As for the surface noise, if you're alright with that? Fine, that's cool. Do understand, there are very meticulous artists out there, and if you don't believe me? We can take someone like Herbert Von Karajan, who has a  shout a being the greatest conductor of the 20th Century? He'd have from 70, to hundreds of musicians in front of him if he was recording Mahler 8? He'd pick out individuals that were doing something wrong, or he wanted something different from them from that cacophony? He hated vinyl, and I think he was quite a bit ahead of any of us here at VT. Certainly the people that can't tell the difference between the Spotify codec and an uncompressed AIFF.

I'm pissed off with vinyl, we should have gone through stereo and surround and be miking up immersive recordings now.

This is called a Hamasaki Square, for immersive and ambient recordings, yet people have gone back to a format that can't even do stereo properly, and are being hammered in the pocket for it.

[bickster]

8 hours ago, Xann said:

On the left is a failed 14" press of a stereo master. This is the sort of disc your records are all made from, unless it's lathe cut, and they're usually crapper tbh.

I keep it as a reminder of how shit vinyl is as a container.

Vinyl fell further and further behind the capabilities of the stereo kit we had the studio. Proper quality analogue: SSL, Neve, Studer and Ampex. When clever digital processing came along, it just became silly.

We were attempting to cut Techno, trying push the boundaries - Into the future we go, in stereo! Or rather not.

Two of my friends have had similar experiences, and the same falling out when cutting their own records in the 30 years since my episode. One had a massive collection, he sold it all after his experience.

The massive irony is that the Dance music scene kept vinyl going, yet the most basic synth can make audio that can't be cut to vinyl. Most artists can't afford the mastering services that have the microscope on the cutting needle, and they're not even at the cut most of the time these days anyway. The mastering places can then use some license to get that audio into the groove. Most people, including the artists, just don't notice. We did notice, which is why we paid for the posh cut with microscope, and got the reveal, and a serious lesson.

Vinyl does have a special sauce, it falls under the science of the perception of sound, psychoacoustics. The record is getting the reproduction wrong, but in a way which is pleasant to the ear. Well, there's other psychoacoustic toys and methods you can employ that don't come with vinyl's handicaps. CD/AIFF doesn't help the mix, it's true, but it's not meant too, it's a container. The making it sound nice bit should have been done by the producer in the recording studio, when it was mixed for the different formats.

I spend quite a lot of time chatting about things that don't work properly that sound cool, with the people that understand the technology. Mr Pepe knows the tech and he likes to use all the space available. 'Phantom Cabinet' (I see Chris has mentioned it) on CD has twice the dynamic range of the vinyl and it's 20 minutes longer. That's someone that understands the difference between formats and how to get the best out of each of them.

As for the surface noise, if you're alright with that? Fine, that's cool. Do understand, there are very meticulous artists out there, and if you don't believe me? We can take someone like Herbert Von Karajan, who has a  shout a being the greatest conductor of the 20th Century? He'd have from 70, to hundreds of musicians in front of him if he was recording Mahler 8? He'd pick out individuals that were doing something wrong, or he wanted something different from them from that cacophony? He hated vinyl, and I think he was quite a bit ahead of any of us here at VT. Certainly the people that can't tell the difference between the Spotify codec and an uncompressed AIFF.

I'm pissed off with vinyl, we should have gone through stereo and surround and be miking up immersive recordings now.

This is called a Hamasaki Square, for immersive and ambient recordings, yet people have gone back to a format that can't even do stereo properly, and are being hammered in the pocket for it.

Its an audiophile response. I'm not an audiophile. I have a decent inexpensive HiFi. Its not all  about the quality of sound. It's about the whole package, the experience, the reading of the sleeve notes, actually being able to see the artwork, the inability to easily skip tracks you don't like, you have to listen to the whole thing. CDs are good for sound, I get that but they are also instant and disposable. CDs rarely hold memories for me, vinyl on the other hand seems to remind me of an awful lot of life events. The CD era also seemed to bring forth the era of chucking as much shit onto an album as possible, standard album lengths went up from 40 minutes to 70 and the extra half an hour was generally shite. Bonus tracks are rarely any good, generally worse than your average B side in the 7" era.

If people want to be audiophiles, that's fine, their choice but it's nonsense, especially to me who suffers from tinnitus, there are frequencies I can't hear well at all. Where vinyl is going wrong is pandering to the extreme audiophiles... 180g vinyl, single albums over two discs that play at 45rpm etc. I've got groove jammed 10 tracks a side Elvis Costello albums pressed on flimsy vinyl that play just fine for me. Audiophiles can have their soulless CDs and FLACs, I buy CDs but I'm less likely to play them for reasons I can't fully explain but like someone said above, all those bonus tracks can be really annoying, their are nice to have if you have a special interest in the artist but generally its inferior filler.

 

[chrisp65]

8 hours ago, Xann said:

On the left is a failed 14" press of a stereo master. This is the sort of disc your records are all made from, unless it's lathe cut, and they're usually crapper tbh.

I keep it as a reminder of how shit vinyl is as a container.

Vinyl fell further and further behind the capabilities of the stereo kit we had the studio. Proper quality analogue: SSL, Neve, Studer and Ampex. When clever digital processing came along, it just became silly.

We were attempting to cut Techno, trying push the boundaries - Into the future we go, in stereo! Or rather not.

Two of my friends have had similar experiences, and the same falling out when cutting their own records in the 30 years since my episode. One had a massive collection, he sold it all after his experience.

The massive irony is that the Dance music scene kept vinyl going, yet the most basic synth can make audio that can't be cut to vinyl. Most artists can't afford the mastering services that have the microscope on the cutting needle, and they're not even at the cut most of the time these days anyway. The mastering places can then use some license to get that audio into the groove. Most people, including the artists, just don't notice. We did notice, which is why we paid for the posh cut with microscope, and got the reveal, and a serious lesson.

Vinyl does have a special sauce, it falls under the science of the perception of sound, psychoacoustics. The record is getting the reproduction wrong, but in a way which is pleasant to the ear. Well, there's other psychoacoustic toys and methods you can employ that don't come with vinyl's handicaps. CD/AIFF doesn't help the mix, it's true, but it's not meant too, it's a container. The making it sound nice bit should have been done by the producer in the recording studio, when it was mixed for the different formats.

I spend quite a lot of time chatting about things that don't work properly that sound cool, with the people that understand the technology. Mr Pepe knows the tech and he likes to use all the space available. 'Phantom Cabinet' (I see Chris has mentioned it) on CD has twice the dynamic range of the vinyl and it's 20 minutes longer. That's someone that understands the difference between formats and how to get the best out of each of them.

As for the surface noise, if you're alright with that? Fine, that's cool. Do understand, there are very meticulous artists out there, and if you don't believe me? We can take someone like Herbert Von Karajan, who has a  shout a being the greatest conductor of the 20th Century? He'd have from 70, to hundreds of musicians in front of him if he was recording Mahler 8? He'd pick out individuals that were doing something wrong, or he wanted something different from them from that cacophony? He hated vinyl, and I think he was quite a bit ahead of any of us here at VT. Certainly the people that can't tell the difference between the Spotify codec and an uncompressed AIFF.

I'm pissed off with vinyl, we should have gone through stereo and surround and be miking up immersive recordings now.

This is called a Hamasaki Square, for immersive and ambient recordings, yet people have gone back to a format that can't even do stereo properly, and are being hammered in the pocket for it.

I can see how spectacularly frustrating it could be for someone in the biz and deep in to the technicals.

But I have raging tinnitus, I share living space with someone else that wants rooms to be useable, my budget for speakers is limited, next door’s dog barks. I’m listening to Billy Bragg murder the same guitar for 40 years and I’m listening to Larry Love gargling barbed wire.

Perhaps an analogy would be cars. There are cars like the Polestar 2, or a Maybach, or a Lamborghini Urus, or even a latest model Honda Jazz that do everything better than any car that has gone before them. My own car has auto braking, sat nav, 8 speakers, 7 speed automatic, and can do 60mpg. My favourite ever car? The 1971 VW Beetle we had. Didn’t always start, didn’t always stop, passenger door couldn’t be opened, drivers door couldn’t be locked. Loved that car.

Super Furry Animals, they released an album initially on DVD in 5.1 surround sound, having mixed it using pro tools, almost a quarter of a century ago. Did it make it a ‘better’ album than the one they recorded in Gorwel’s bungalow? Not to my knackered old ears. But then, if you are going to ‘record and release’ the music using state of the art stuff, should you be using instruments that are not top end? Why spend a month mixing and sampling a £200 guitar when there are £2000 guitars out there? Why record at 2:00am half pissed, when you could get yourself together, get fit, get organised and record mid afternoon after a light organic lunch and a run. I guess that’s what Coldplay do, and good on them, I have no problem with them or the fanny candle spin off business.

My partner plays Coldplay CD’s, on a portable unit, out the kitchen, whilst she does the dishes. I can only imagine the trouble they’ve gone to, getting that CD just absolutely right so it’s the optimum listening experience, with your hands in murky dishwater with the tumble dryer doing its thing just off to the left. Ah the irony, when I listen to music, I sit there and I listen. But not Coldplay, no, I concentrate on some bunch of amateurs asking if I’ve ever fallen in love with someone I shouldn’t have fallen in love with. 

I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t try, and shouldn’t improve, but all that tech is sort of off to the side of my little hobby. My main niggle with records is all that planet killing fresh vinyl. That’s what could eventually make me swap to a computer file.

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

CDs rarely hold memories for me, vinyl on the other hand seems to remind me of an awful lot of life events. The CD era also seemed to bring forth the era of chucking as much shit onto an album as possible, standard album lengths went up from 40 minutes to 70 and the extra half an hour was generally shite. Bonus tracks are rarely any good, generally worse than your average B side in the 7" era.

I get the 'memories' thing. Which is why I kept a few special LPs, even if I had the CD. The most special, you'll be pleased to know, is 'With The Beatles' - the first album I ever owned (and a first pressing, with some resale value, fwiw). But if I ever want to actually hear that album, I'd probably play the CD, it's just easier. And anyway, that's just a few special cases - 99% of my 2000-odd LPs had no magic memories (beyond the actual music which is on the CD anyway), so out they went. 

As for the bonus tracks, I can't speak for your collection, but I love most of them, especially for the artists - like Dylan - that I'm collection-nerdy about. Speaking of which, CDs revolutionised the bootleg world. Vinyl boots tended to be hard to find, usually badly pressed, and invariably extortionately priced. But CD boots are widely available and cheap (even Amazon will sell live ones, as long as they have the totally spurious word 'broadcast' somewhere on the insert). 

[bickster]

11 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

especially for the artists - like Dylan - that I'm collection-nerdy about.

Absolutely get that, I'm the same with early period Bunnymen out takes

I still maintain that most bonus tracks are either filler or inferior takes

[mjmooney]

55 minutes ago, bickster said:

I still maintain that most bonus tracks are either filler or inferior takes

They often are, it's true. 

What does piss me off, though, is when they put out a CD by an artist I collect - which I buy - and then a few years later issue a 'remaster', with one extra track, trying to get me to buy the damn thing again. And (with gritted teeth) I often do. 

[Mark Albrighton]

How prevalent are secret tracks these days? There was a time when it felt like a reasonably regular feature where I play an album, and what was assumed to be the final track had a moment of silence at the end before launching into another song that wasn’t listed. Often the song was fairly forgettable.

I assume the way music is consumed has reduced this frequency of it.

[bickster]

22 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

How prevalent are secret tracks these days? There was a time when it felt like a reasonably regular feature where I play an album, and what was assumed to be the final track had a moment of silence at the end before launching into another song that wasn’t listed. Often the song was fairly forgettable.

I assume the way music is consumed has reduced this frequency of it.

The latest Yo La Tengo album has a secret side  

As in only the tracks on the first three sides are listed on the album but side 4 is one long 7 minute instrumental

One of those famous "secret tracks" was Train in Vain on London Calling, it wasn't really secret, it was recorded as a B-side after the album sessions iirc but was deemed too good for a B-side and was hurriedly added to the album but they didn't have time to change the artwork

Oh yeah and closed grooves at the end of albums, can't do that on a CD can you