Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Tom13]

20 hours ago, duke313 said:

That front 4 if playing well would be the best attacking line up outside the top 6.

They need to start playing together. At least the 3 behind Ollie.

[TRO]

21 hours ago, og1874 said:

Yup, and not relying on the width coming from the defence, letting the CM stay in CM and not worry about being stand in full backs (which all too frequently leaves us with a CM of 1, or even 0 bodies)

just being devils advocate.

when the full backs do it properly and commit the oppostion to retreat, what you say, becomes less of an issue.....it's the losing of the ball so often, that causes most of it.

Sure, I get your point, but when the players are not doing it i.e "at it"  all formations have gaps and vulnerbale bits.....its players, that make formations work, formations don't bail out players.

FWIW.....i don't like the idea of midfielders being deployed to cover absent full backs/wing backs.....albeit, worked correctly it can work.

It seems to me SG favours the attacking wingbacks similar to the Liverpool way......but at present, we haven't got the midfielders to make it work.....maybe he thinks we have to start somewhere in changing it, and Lucas Digne was the first opportunity in a bigger plan.

We will see in he Summer.

[duke313]

On 07/04/2022 at 10:41, TRO said:

just being devils advocate.

when the full backs do it properly and commit the oppostion to retreat, what you say, becomes less of an issue.....it's the losing of the ball so often, that causes most of it.

Sure, I get your point, but when the players are not doing it i.e "at it"  all formations have gaps and vulnerbale bits.....its players, that make formations work, formations don't bail out players.

FWIW.....i don't like the idea of midfielders being deployed to cover absent full backs/wing backs.....albeit, worked correctly it can work.

It seems to me SG favours the attacking wingbacks similar to the Liverpool way......but at present, we haven't got the midfielders to make it work.....maybe he thinks we have to start somewhere in changing it, and Lucas Digne was the first opportunity in a bigger plan.

We will see in he Summer.

Liverpool do it, they play with 3 in midfield and cover TAA and Robertson when they go forward.  With the right players the system can work and work well, we just don't have the players at the minute.

[TomC]

On 05/04/2022 at 06:38, hippo said:

When the managers are Dean Smith (did great for us - but had a reached a ceiling) and an unproven Stephen Gerrard.  I don't thinks its beyond the realms of possibility that neither are good enough to manage in the higher Echelons of the premiership.

It might just be that neither is/was good enough.

And it just might be that both were good enough and the players were the problem...

 

On 06/04/2022 at 09:26, TRO said:

2) We have tried every fromation know to man, under 2 managers.

On 04/04/2022 at 20:02, TRO said:

we haven't got the midfield to play any system...and that remains the issue.

Exactly. You can't blame SG's formation when Deano tried 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 3-5-2, etc. at various points in time and didn't get any better results. The midfielders aren't terrible but they aren't anything special and they don't fit together. That's our #1 problem. Some may be worth keeping with the right players around them.

 

On 05/04/2022 at 10:59, Dale said:

Luiz, Ghazi, Grealish, Mings, Konsa, McGinn, Targett, Cash, JJ they all improved markedly under Dean...

They improved markedly for a while last year, but several of them regressed late last year/early this year while Deano was still here...Mings (whom I still rate), McGinn, Targett...that's not SG's fault.

 

On 05/04/2022 at 14:04, hippo said:

And who gets 3 years these days ???? - at any club ?....anywhere ?

Who cares about other clubs...maybe if we're the patient ones, we will have the better results.

Edited April 8, 2022 by TomC
Corrected spelling of Mings

[MaVilla]

3 hours ago, Dale said:

It's 100% Aston Villa's squad. Clubs absolutely need to get away from having coaches that cannot work with the very good players they inherit. I don't want Gerrard to leave in eight months time (or eighteen) leaving a squad unable to play a system other than his one (cos coaches that like that aren't in existence outside of this one). 

Look at Leicester, their turn over hasn't been huge since Rogers came in, he got the very best out of players that were there before him. Conte hasn't overhauled Spurs, yet they're better. Tuchel, won a Champions League without a window. Even Norwich and Watford are better without a massive turnover in players (sadly Norwich just don't have the tools to be better enough). Good coaches take what they've got, make it better and slowly, organically the squad changes taking into account the coach and the Sporting Director. Eddie Howe has made signings not dozens, they're miles better than under Bruce. 

the problem is, quite a few of our players arent actually very good......

Edited April 8, 2022 by MaVilla

[Zhan_Zhuang]

Just now, MaVilla said:

the problem is quite a few of our players arent actually very good......

Yup over-hyped on here by some, criticised by others.

Yet it's all Gerrard's fault apparently! 

[jim]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

It's 100% Aston Villa's squad. Clubs absolutely need to get away from having coaches that cannot work with the very good players they inherit. I don't want Gerrard to leave in eight months time (or eighteen) leaving a squad unable to play a system other than his one (cos coaches that like that aren't in existence outside of this one). 

Look at Leicester, their turn over hasn't been huge since Rogers came in, he got the very best out of players that were there before him. Conte hasn't overhauled Spurs, yet they're better. Tuchel, won a Champions League without a window. Even Norwich and Watford are better without a massive turnover in players (sadly Norwich just don't have the tools to be better enough). Good coaches take what they've got, make it better and slowly, organically the squad changes taking into account the coach and the Sporting Director. Eddie Howe has made signings not dozens, they're miles better than under Bruce. 

Conte and Tuchel are elite managers who inherited some very good players, including a smattering of world class players that were under performing. 
Gerrard inherited a mid table squad that was staring at relegation, we are now around mid table…

[Follyfoot]

The thing I find odd with Gerrard and also to a lesser degree with Smith is why we seem to wait until 65/70 minutes to change something when it clearly is not working. If we are going to change the course of the game we need to be brave and make substitutions earlier for players that aren’t working. We now have the personnel to completely change shape with five substitutes allowed we could capitalise on this

Edited April 8, 2022 by Follyfoot

[TomC]

14 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

The thing I find odd with Gerrard and also to a lesser degree with Smith is why we seem to wait until 65/70 minutes to change something when it clearly is not working. If we are going to change the course of the game we need to be brave and make substitutions earlier for players that aren’t working. We now have the personnel to completely change shape with five substitutes allowed we could capitalise on this

I am curious whether this will change with 5 subs...

You have to save at least one sub for the last 15 minutes in case you have an injury. If you get an injury after your last sub but you have only 10-15 minutes to go, you can probably see the match through, but any earlier and you have a problem. With a 3 sub limit, that makes the other two pretty precious. I can understand why managers are hesitant to use those too early.

That said, both Deano and SG were/are both extreme examples. Both seem hesitant to make the halftime tactical change (let alone a change in the middle of the first half). We already saw Deano with 5 subs during COVID and he still didn't make many early changes; I think he just wasn't a big in-game tweaker. When 5 subs are back next year, we will find out if SG is merely cautious to use a limited resource or if he's not an in-game tweaker.

I can't say I'm a fan of 5 subs. I don't like the idea that you can go up 1-0, change out half your team for defensive players, and try to sit on a lead. 

[VillaParkAvenue]

1 hour ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

Yup over-hyped on here by some, criticised by others.

Yet it's all Gerrard's fault apparently! 

Please don’t exaggerate, no more than 80% is his fault.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, Follyfoot said:

The thing I find odd with Gerrard and also to a lesser degree with Smith is why we seem to wait until 65/70 minutes to change something when it clearly is not working. If we are going to change the course of the game we need to be brave and make substitutions earlier for players that aren’t working. We now have the personnel to completely change shape with five substitutes allowed we could capitalise on this

I reckon the 5 sub rule will change this slightly.

It's one of the reasons I've always been for it.

[The_Steve]

1 hour ago, jim said:

Conte and Tuchel are elite managers who inherited some very good players, including a smattering of world class players that were under performing. 
Gerrard inherited a mid table squad that was staring at relegation, we are now around mid table…

100% people need to temper their expectations. And realise the strengths and limitations of the squad. We are heading in the right direction despite various hiccups. A lot of clubs in our position would struggle losing such an important player like Grealish and try to implement different ideas and managers. 

[Tomaszk]

Seen a bit of chat around 4231.

Be surprised if we went that way. Not many good sides play it any more. Certainly none of the top, pressing sides.

The 10 makes it awkward to press if you want two guys sat deeper to cover the defence. You can't cover enough space.

Closest is probably Liverpool because they sort of play the striker as a 10 and the wingers come in . But it's tough to play it and press effectively.

[VillaParkAvenue]

8 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Seen a bit of chat around 4231.

Be surprised if we went that way. Not many good sides play it any more. Certainly none of the top, pressing sides.

The 10 makes it awkward to press if you want two guys sat deeper to cover the defence. You can't cover enough space.

Closest is probably Liverpool because they sort of play the striker as a 10 and the wingers come in . But it's tough to play it and press effectively.

Could theoretically still work for Villa, since we’ve decided to not press high and instead prioritize to get back into shape.

[Tomaszk]

1 minute ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

Could theoretically still work for Villa, since we’ve decided to not press high and instead prioritize to get back into shape.

Yep, it can work. West Ham stand off and play it well.

It's not what I want to see particularly, but if it's a decent watch and can get us above 55 points I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

[MaVilla]

i will caveat by saying that Gerrard & Beale seem to be all in on the 4321/4312 system, so i dont see that changing.

However, a lot of the top sides seem to be playing 3421/3412/343 type formations, and to be honest, we have Digne & Cash, so i think its a formation we could play, we would ofc need upgrades elsewhere to make it work.

In closing though, i just dont see Gerrard & Beale moving away from what they are doing formation wise.

[skarroki]

12 hours ago, Tommo_b said:

Don’t think this was a stupid comment, think it’s a very valid comment, players that are not good enough NEED to be replaced and the players need to hear it instead of playing half hearted. 

We definitely have enough players that are good enough for a European squad to field a starting XI though. If they're good enough but playing half-hearted and they need a kick up the arse so be it. If they're simply not good enough don't play them in the last few matches of a dead end season and then slate them 

[skarroki]

3 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

It won't be replicated by Gerrard, cause we haven't got a Grealish. People need to remember most out success was down to Grealish. He was unfortunately the demise of Smith....................an Watkin's so it seems.

We haven't got a Grealish but we've got a Coutinho and all our best performances under Gerrard have come when Coutinho is playing well enough to beat the opposition on his own.

Smith's demise was Grealish going and then never getting any of the people bought to replace him fit enough to get on the pitch together. Bailey has had a howler of a season, Buendia spluttered into life just before Coutinho showed up and Ings has had his worst season since his leg was in a cast. I think people predicted we'd maybe get less points this season without Grealish but I don't think anyone expected none of our big signings to do well, Watkins to regress and to need 19 points from a possible 24 to match our total from last season with 8 games remaining. 

 

[Tomaszk]

1 hour ago, MaVilla said:

i will caveat by saying that Gerrard & Beale seem to be all in on the 4321/4312 system, so i dont see that changing.

However, a lot of the top sides seem to be playing 3421/3412/343 type formations, and to be honest, we have Digne & Cash, so i think its a formation we could play, we would ofc need upgrades elsewhere to make it work.

In closing though, i just dont see Gerrard & Beale moving away from what they are doing formation wise.

Wanted us to at least try it for about 18 months.

Smith was hamstrung by his insistence on three wide forwards. Gerrard seems to want everyone except the full back to play within the width of the box.

[jim]

13 hours ago, Dale said:

They're more than good enough for mid table in this league. 

FTFY.

Looking at the table I can see what team, Palace that imo has a weaker squad than ours. So we are currently there or there abouts where we should be.