og1874 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 1 minute ago, duke313 said: With the DM dropping to CB you wouldn't need 3 in midfield, 5221 or 5212 if playing with two strikers: ---------------------------Martinez------------------------------- ----------Konsa-------Chambers---------Mings--------- Cash-------------MC---------------MC----------------Digne ---------------Buendia------------Coutinho------------------ ----------------------------Watkins-------------------------------- With the players we have at our disposal, we definitely need 3 in the middle or we'll just be played though as usual 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobsons Choice Posted April 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted April 5, 2022 Just now, og1874 said: With the players we have at our disposal, we definitely need 3 in the middle or we'll just be played though as usual That would be Chambers stepping out of the back 3 or tracking back with the opposition 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 Is anyone else concerned though that he plays McGinn full 90 every single game and Sanson (who looks to be a technically superior player) has barely had a look in? It's very concerning to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
og1874 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 Just now, HKP90 said: That would be Chambers stepping out of the back 3 or tracking back with the opposition 10 Chambers stepping out of the back 3 would leave us, if hit on the break (which we are prone to), with 2 defenders, both narrow, and both prone to an error. We would be at very real risk of being dismantled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, HKP90 said: I thought of that but in the light of everyone having a minor fit at the use of two No. 10's I thought I'd leave it. You could play without the two 10s, just means dropping Buendia or Coutinho: ---------------------------Martinez------------------------------- ----------Konsa-------Chambers---------Mings--------- Cash-------------MC---------------MC----------------Digne -----------------------------Coutinho----------------------------- ---------------Watkins-------------------Ings------------------- 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 1 minute ago, HKP90 said: That would be Chambers stepping out of the back 3 or tracking back with the opposition 10 I would try chambers at CDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobsons Choice Posted April 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted April 5, 2022 7 minutes ago, og1874 said: I think there might be benefit to it to be honest, but if we were to do it I'd honestly go for no striker Would a 5-3-2-0 not just be a defensive/squished 5-3-2? I'm happy with a strikerless system using a false 9 in a front 3, but I am not sure I understand how a 5-3-2-0 would work. Happy to be convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
og1874 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 Just now, Tom13 said: Is anyone else concerned though that he plays McGinn full 90 every single game and Sanson (who looks to be a technically superior player) has barely had a look in? It's very concerning to me. 100%. McGinn is far from our worst player, but aside from bringing in a DM, he's the first midfielder I'd like to see an upgrade on in the summer. Absolutely no sleight on John. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishVilla10 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tom13 said: Is anyone else concerned though that he plays McGinn full 90 every single game and Sanson (who looks to be a technically superior player) has barely had a look in? It's very concerning to me. Absolutely. I think it’s because Mcginn is our only midfielder who’s actually physical and puts himself about the pitch. And without him we don’t have that in midfield. I don’t think sansons that type of player. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
og1874 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 Just now, HKP90 said: Would a 5-3-2-0 not just be a defensive/squished 5-3-2? I'm happy with a strikerless system using a false 9 in a front 3, but I am not sure I understand how a 5-3-2-0 would work. Happy to be convinced. Well it'd mean not playing Ings or Watkins, and instead having Coutinho almost slipping into the most advanced role when attacking, or allowing for someone like JJ to slip in from deep into that role. It brings a level of uncertainty to the opposition defence, and makes the midfield unit more difficult to play through as there's an extra body. Then you've got the width provided by Cash and Digne, without sacrificing bodies to cover wide when they're pushed up - instead the 3 in midfield would be a diamond of 2-1 that would move up and down in unison - if JJ or SMG break forward, you could look at Buendia to be a body to slip back (he's NOT a CM, but it adds someone else to at least break up line of sight for a pass, or to harry someone breaking with the ball. It's not conventional, by any stretch, and I'm no football manager, but it might work if the banks work as units properly, and the switches are well drilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobsons Choice Posted April 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted April 5, 2022 7 minutes ago, og1874 said: Chambers stepping out of the back 3 would leave us, if hit on the break (which we are prone to), with 2 defenders, both narrow, and both prone to an error. We would be at very real risk of being dismantled I don't mean he marauds forward. He'd be a temporary DM. A DM who is in general more defensive than a Midfielder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 1 minute ago, HKP90 said: I don't mean he marauds forward. He'd be a temporary DM. A DM who is in general more defensive than a Midfielder. Even if he did maraud forward, can't be any more out of position than Douglas Luiz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobsons Choice Posted April 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted April 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, og1874 said: Well it'd mean not playing Ings or Watkins, and instead having Coutinho almost slipping into the most advanced role when attacking, or allowing for someone like JJ to slip in from deep into that role. It brings a level of uncertainty to the opposition defence, and makes the midfield unit more difficult to play through as there's an extra body. Then you've got the width provided by Cash and Digne, without sacrificing bodies to cover wide when they're pushed up - instead the 3 in midfield would be a diamond of 2-1 that would move up and down in unison - if JJ or SMG break forward, you could look at Buendia to be a body to slip back (he's NOT a CM, but it adds someone else to at least break up line of sight for a pass, or to harry someone breaking with the ball. It's not conventional, by any stretch, and I'm no football manager, but it might work if the banks work as units properly, and the switches are well drilled. I see where you are going, but I just don't see goals in that system. We'd control the ball, but our width would be from full backs which would mean our wide men would be deeper than conventional wingers, and would not have anyone to cross to. We would have to play through the middle every time, which means the opposition could just pack out the defensive midfield, and we'd have no options. When false nines are used in a front 3 it's because the wide men operate as inside forwards and make a beeline for the box every time the F9 gets the ball. They are effectively strikers in all but name , but coming from a wide position on a diagonal trajectory. With wing backs, we'd have no-one anywhere near the box, unless they break through the centre, which would be easy to counter. A Burnley tactic would spank us every single time. In fairness we probably have the personnel to operate a front three with a false 9. We just don't play them at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
og1874 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, HKP90 said: I see where you are going, but I just don't see goals in that system. We'd control the ball, but our width would be from full backs which would mean our wide men would be deeper than conventional wingers, and would not have anyone to cross to. We would have to play through the middle every time, which means the opposition could just pack out the defensive midfield, and we'd have no options. When false nines are used in a front 3 it's because the wide men operate as inside forwards and make a beeline for the box every time the F9 gets the ball. They are effectively strikers in all but name , but coming from a wide position on a diagonal trajectory. With wing backs, we'd have no-one anywhere near the box, unless they break through the centre, which would be easy to counter. A Burnley tactic would spank us every single time. In fairness we probably have the personnel to operate a front three with a false 9. We just don't play them at the moment. The problem with any system at the moment stems from the wafer thin CM. There's nothing we can really do except pile some more bodies into it and hope for the best, or continue with what we're doing and be played through as if we're not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 Just now, og1874 said: The problem with any system at the moment stems from the wafer thin CM. There's nothing we can really do except pile some more bodies into it and hope for the best, or continue with what we're doing and be played through as if we're not there. Replace all 3 CMs with 3 DMs, might get a few 0-0s at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
og1874 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 Just now, duke313 said: Replace all 3 CMs with 3 DMs, might get a few 0-0s at least. Haha if we had 3 decent DMs we wouldn't have this issue to begin with. I'd be interested to just how Nakamba, Chambers, and Luiz would far in the middle. I would imagine it would be absolutely turgid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobsons Choice Posted April 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted April 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, og1874 said: Haha if we had 3 decent DMs we wouldn't have this issue to begin with. I'd be interested to just how Nakamba, Chambers, and Luiz would far in the middle. I would imagine it would be absolutely turgid. All fair points. That's the thing about a good commanding DM though. He lets everyone else f**k off up the other end and hurt the opposition. When you have a good one, you only need one (cue kenneth). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
og1874 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 1 minute ago, HKP90 said: All fair points. That's the thing about a good commanding DM though. He lets everyone else f**k off up the other end and hurt the opposition. When you have a good one, you only need one (cue kenneth). Yup, and it's honestly very difficult to get a genuine feel for the overall quality of our midfield without that guy in there. It could be a revelation, turning the likes of McGinn and Luiz into world beaters. (It probably wouldn't be quite that good, but honestly it's just so so hard to actually know until we have that guy - it certainly wouldn't make things worse, that's for sure) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobsons Choice Posted April 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, og1874 said: Yup, and it's honestly very difficult to get a genuine feel for the overall quality of our midfield without that guy in there. It could be a revelation, turning the likes of McGinn and Luiz into world beaters. (It probably wouldn't be quite that good, but honestly it's just so so hard to actually know until we have that guy - it certainly wouldn't make things worse, that's for sure) Totally agree. Kante at Chelsea allows the likes of Havertz and Mount to get away with very little defensive responsibility. They looked rubbish without him against Brentford. Edited April 5, 2022 by HKP90 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 6 minutes ago, HKP90 said: Totally agree. Kante at Chelsea allows the likes of Havertz and Mount to get away with very little defensive responsibility. They looked rubbish without him against Brentford. The bulk of the transfer budget in the summer should be spent on a DM, with Nakamba serving as backup/rotation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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