TheMightyVillans Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) So what is our strongest 11 assuming everyone is fit and in form? Would love to see this lineup one day. Digne and Moreno pretty much equal for me so not sure what is the best pick there. Martinez Konsa Mings Torres Moreno Bailey Kamara Luiz Ramsey Mcginn Watkins Edited February 27 by TheMightyVillans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Martinez / Gauci / Sinisalo Cash / Nedelkjovic Carlos / Konsa / Pau / Mings / New LCB Moreno / Sousa Bailey / New Winger Kamara / New CDM Luiz / McGinn Ramsey / Buendia Tielemans / Diaby / Rogers Watkins / Duran We've 4 younger players there. Nedelkjovic, Sousa, Rogers and Duran. We have 3 spaces in the squad that need filling when you look at those in squad this season leaving / left we've got Traore, Zaniolo, Dendonker, Chambers, Lenglet, Digne, Olsen When you exclude Ramsey and Sinisalo we can only pick 21 of the 23 players for our UEFA squad if our new signings aren't youth players we've sold. So if we replace Cash lets say with new RB and then bring Philogene back as our winger we could leave out Nedelkjovic or Sousa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan95 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 We really need to sort out our defensive set pieces, it's costing us so many goals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan95 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 So no McGinn for 3 matches now. Assume we go Tim and Luiz but we're down to the bare bones there now. Tielemans and Chambers are the next in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rightdm00 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Cash as the right sided midfielder has worked exactly one time vs Burnley. It's been an abject failure every other time we have tried it. Please no more. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 27 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said: Cash as the right sided midfielder has worked exactly one time vs Burnley. It's been an abject failure every other time we have tried it. Please no more. Wasn't it more of a back 3 or 5 today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 44 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said: Cash as the right sided midfielder has worked exactly one time vs Burnley. It's been an abject failure every other time we have tried it. Please no more. It’s awful. How many times does it have to not work to stop it. Accept lesser players in the same position and deal with it. Shifting the system is a terrible idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan95 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 2 hours ago, PaulC said: Wasn't it more of a back 3 or 5 today. Yep we looked very much 5-3-2 today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 11 minutes ago, villan95 said: Yep we looked very much 5-3-2 today 532 is a 352 it’s just about how much control of the game you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan95 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 3 minutes ago, paul514 said: 532 is a 352 it’s just about how much control of the game you have. We had none so it was 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV82 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Personally I think we should play a 3-5-2 when the opposition GK has the ball, 3-4-1-1 when their RB is taking a throw-in, 1-4-5 when we have the ball (Steve Bruce line of thinking classic) and a 5-5-5 when we're 1-0 up to protect the lead. Anything other than the above and we're throwing the game away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) Was interested in some of our set ups. Chelsea FA Cup 1st leg - 4222 but Tielemans LM and McGinn RM with Diaby up top - generally a struggle of a performance Newcastle home - 4222 same set up as Chelsea - horrific game, Tielemans and McGinn can't really be our wide midfielders together, Diaby struggling in the second striker spot again Sheffield away - 4222 - Konsa RB and Bailey at RM with Tielemans at SS. Easy match since it's Sheffield but structurally sound. Chelsea home - 4222 - same line up as Sheffield away but Cash at RB with the whole Cash going forward and Kamara dropping back as 3rd CB - another horrific game United home - 4222 McGinn at second striker, this was a good performance and deserved more. Cash going back to 3rd CB and a far better performance overall. Fulham away - 4222 - McGinn goes in for Kamara but we play largely the same system as we did with United at home with Cash as 3rd CB and a good performance and result Forest home - 4222 - more of the same Luton away - 4222 - more of the same, JJ injury disrupted us Ajax away - 4222 - heavy rotation and curiously cautious gameplan Spurs home - 532 - disasterclass You can see how some of these changes are forced. Pau still out, then Konsa injury, then Kamara injury. But in general - we have played our best in the 4222 with whoever plays RB staying as the 3rd CB and then Bailey (and I think you can substitute Diaby out wide) providing width on the right. The configurations with two center mids in the wide position are too slow and unathletic. The configurations with Cash bombing on from RB instead of staying are dysfunctional. The 532 I think I've expressed enough of my displeasure with in other threads. Can't help but think we've played best in the same system that has carried us this far. Chopping and changing it will be heavily detrimental. 4222 - RB stays back, pace wide right and an athletic enough player wide left (JJ, Zaniolo, or Rogers - we will have to live with whoever ends up playing there). A link player next to Ollie. Edited March 11 by DJBOB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleVilla Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 On 10/03/2024 at 10:46, Rightdm00 said: Cash as the right sided midfielder has worked exactly one time vs Burnley. It's been an abject failure every other time we have tried it. Please no more. And they were awful that day too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farlz Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Its time to have a rethink. Its obvious looking at the heat maps for Sundays game for average positions. Only Luiz was playing Central midfield. Of we haven't got the players to plsy there then we need to think outside the box and move somebody into that position who can do the basic things like holding position, tackling abd have some physicality. Someone like Carlos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterSw Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 I think the bigger question is who replaces McGinn's defensive workrate when out of position. Tim will do an ok job beside Luiz but we've seen before that Tielemans can't do the defensive side of that role and Rogers is very much still learning the tactics etc. I wonder if we could see Moreno in the McGinn role offering defensive cover to Digne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 On 26/02/2024 at 13:56, DJBOB said: A lot of the same principles we've worked on all year in display for this move. But what I like about Cash as 3rd CB is that he does have the option of pushing forward when needed. And that change in dynamic can cause that moment of hesitation of who marks who. This is not too dissimilar from what Spurs do with Udogie and Porro. As Cash pushes forward, Niakhate follows Bailey out wide because he doesn't want the in-form winger with a free run. But since Cash keeps pushing forward, Hudson-Odoi is a bit confused on where he should mark and position himself. Taking advantage of wingers and their lack of defensive awareness is what allows Cash to be in more space than he should have right at the edge of the box in between the fullback and CB spot - the perfect area. The rest is training ground stuff. My only slightly worry about this set up is that Tielemans is a bit too high for me. Once he sees Cash moving forward, he should take a few steps back so that he's a bit behind the play. My presumption too is that McGinn is covering for Cash at CB now. You can see how if the Bailey to Cash connection is intercepted or an errant touch, then the counter is on against McGinn and Tielemans - not an ideal scenario. You can see Gibbs-White lurking right behind Tielemans and ready to pounce on a lot of open space ahead of him. Against better teams, that will be trouble. Edit: as a side note - look at Hudson-Odoi and then Elanga's effort tracking back. This is kind of part and parcel why Unai doesn't like to do a two winger option like Bailey and Diaby at the same time (and part of the reason Arsenal can get away with it with the wor krate Saka and Martinelli). You need the wingers working just as hard tracking back - and JJ on the left can especially give that support. Bailey has improved leaps and bounds but wingers will naturally not be as good at this. Forest fielding Hudson-Odoi, Gibbs-White, and Elanga has that risk because all it takes is a few weak links or switching off to be opened up like we did to them. Not trying to be facetious.....but where did all that go?.....against Spurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 16 hours ago, Farlz said: Maybe, we should learn something.....do we ever consider pressing or marking?.....far too loose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 (edited) 28 minutes ago, TRO said: Not trying to be facetious.....but where did all that go?.....against Spurs. Formation change to be more defensive. I think kind of goes back to a little bit of what we're talking about and we both kind of agree on. We're good at certain things, and not so good at others. So we should focus on doing the things we're good at (baiting the press, high line and offside trap, getting 1v1s for Watkins and Bailey) instead of the things we're not so good at (defending deep, trying to win duels with our undersized players, ceding possession). For whatever reason, Unai came up with a gameplan that was antithetical to what we had planned all year. Why? Only he will know. I'm hoping it was a risk that didn't pay off instead of a semi-permanent change. At :35 in the video, you can see McGinn pointing to Cash even though he's nowhere near the ball because he knows where the spare man will be. Against Spurs, the players were very hesitant because they were playing a system completely different than what they were used to. That's fine if you're in the middle of a managerial change, or if you're like an Ancelotti with high IQ players that can interchange positions. But you're still playing in largely the same structure. But playing almost 70 matches one way and then suddenly switching it for a high pressure game is probably one of the more baffling pieces of management I've seen under Unai so far. Edited March 12 by DJBOB 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 36 minutes ago, DJBOB said: Formation change to be more defensive. I think kind of goes back to a little bit of what we're talking about and we both kind of agree on. We're good at certain things, and not so good at others. So we should focus on doing the things we're good at (baiting the press, high line and offside trap, getting 1v1s for Watkins and Bailey) instead of the things we're not so good at (defending deep, trying to win duels with our undersized players, ceding possession). For whatever reason, Unai came up with a gameplan that was antithetical to what we had planned all year. Why? Only he will know. I'm hoping it was a risk that didn't pay off instead of a semi-permanent change. At :35 in the video, you can see McGinn pointing to Cash even though he's nowhere near the ball because he knows where the spare man will be. Against Spurs, the players were very hesitant because they were playing a system completely different than what they were used to. That's fine if you're in the middle of a managerial change, or if you're like an Ancelotti with high IQ players that can interchange positions. But you're still playing in largely the same structure. But playing almost 70 matches one way and then suddenly switching it for a high pressure game is probably one of the more baffling pieces of management I've seen under Unai so far. Good answer.....and I can see the reasoning, and I agree, but only to a degree....and I still think, there is more to it. The emboldened bit certainly haunts me, when we get carried away with expectations. I still saw things close up...that I wouldn't necessarily use the system as a scapegoat...albeit not suggesting that as a euphemism, for not agreeing with you, because I do. I still think this team, has too many players, with attacking bias, playing in defensive positions.......As much as I accept the way we play, and I watch other teams......it keeps coming back to me. I think some of the conceded goals lately, won't let this drift away from my thinking. I can think of many teams, where their first goal would likely be cut out....whether Sarr would be closed down or Maddison be out muscled......as good as the goal appeared in one perspective, in another perspective it was puny and immature. Like you, I hope it is down to a set up change, but I have my doubts.....time will tell, on how we approach games moving forward. Moving forward in general, I am happy with the attacking side of our game, not so happy with the defending.....I think we will make it hard for ourselves, if we stay like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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