Team shape, tactics and personnel

[VillanousOne]

Whether it be from injuries/suspensions etc, we have just looked really unbalanced all over the pitch, we are also very slow and frustrating to watch at times, I get drawing players out of position but half the time it has no affect and teams just pull all their men back and double up on the wings.

I also notice that if players are moving forwards and get fouled we get free kicks but if our plays are clattered down in our own half as a result of pressing, no matter if it is a foul or not we never get anything, it's like possession won from the press has no rules. Probably not just us either. 

[DJBOB]

29 minutes ago, VillanousOne said:

Whether it be from injuries/suspensions etc, we have just looked really unbalanced all over the pitch, we are also very slow and frustrating to watch at times, I get drawing players out of position but half the time it has no affect and teams just pull all their men back and double up on the wings.

I also notice that if players are moving forwards and get fouled we get free kicks but if our plays are clattered down in our own half as a result of pressing, no matter if it is a foul or not we never get anything, it's like possession won from the press has no rules. Probably not just us either. 

We need Pau back so we can stop playing our 3rd and 4th choice CB’s and our best defending CB at RB. 
 
Pau being it affects both our ability to play quick (Lenglet has been serviceable but is no Pau) and in my view, has us playing too conservatively against low blocks (3 CB’s and 2 CM’s). 
 
Cash, for all his faults, can be the extra man going forward whereas Konsa will always be a bit more conservative. 

[CVByrne]

I think the biggest learning Emery has had this season tactically is about RB. He had the plans set from summer for LB is attacking and we play a CB at RB the same way he set up his Villareal team. He wants a 3 2 5 structure in possession. 

I think he's now seeing how key having two attacking FBs is and the RCB position might be better served by a top CDM like Kamara dropping in there or going with a 2 2 6 if we face the low block. 

This is why KKH is recalled as he offers that threat from RB, we have seen signing of Fred the new attacking young RB. I think we could see in summer KKH/Cash both depart and a Frimpong come in and now our attack is transformed and the evolution against the low block. We would need a new Kamara deputy who can function in same type of system.

[TRO]

On 14/01/2024 at 16:12, DJBOB said:

We can talk refereeing and personnel but at the end of the day, we don’t have a good pattern of play in the final third. It’s far too cautious as a team and we rarely overload a side or stray from our formation - which opponents have game planned against for a few months now. 

I respectfully say.....I am not so sure about that, depending on the context

Its rarely one thing, But I think Unai, is well equipped to deal with that, just not sure the players are doing all they can.

Our forwards have to show a willingness to do more....now that can be more than one thing, but it does include moving around the point that midfielders can find them, hiding behind opposition defenders is not the way.

Unai is one of the best coaches around, but he can only tell them what to do....he relies on them doing it.

Its very easy for forwards to employ a passive approach, when the going gets tough...now I am not saying that is the case, but it could be......forwards have to find a way, of disrupting organised defences, it could be Football IQ, iT could be movement, Itcould be physical aggression, it could be pace.....but they have to find something. A glum face, and a conclusion that its impossible, is not an option from a committed player.

Fire in the belly, finds a way.

However, I will confess, playing in front of these low blocks, is pointless, they have to get around the back, or make runs between the lines, to get the ball over the top....to do they they have to be alert, and willing to make runs.

I'm sure we'll crack it.

 

Edited January 18 by TRO

[DJBOB]

6 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I think the biggest learning Emery has had this season tactically is about RB. He had the plans set from summer for LB is attacking and we play a CB at RB the same way he set up his Villareal team. He wants a 3 2 5 structure in possession. 

I think he's now seeing how key having two attacking FBs is and the RCB position might be better served by a top CDM like Kamara dropping in there or going with a 2 2 6 if we face the low block. 

This is why KKH is recalled as he offers that threat from RB, we have seen signing of Fred the new attacking young RB. I think we could see in summer KKH/Cash both depart and a Frimpong come in and now our attack is transformed and the evolution against the low block. We would need a new Kamara deputy who can function in same type of system.

I think the biggest limitation we have is our inability to invert our fullbacks to play a 235 similar to what City do and now Spurs do with Udogie and Porro. Without that extra man in the midfield, we rarely overload a side or a line of their defense. Liverpool also frequently send both fullbacks forward and only have a 2-1 rest defense (VVD, Konate and whoever is playing the #6).

Especially when teams play a variation of only one striker, it is pointless to have 3 CB's at the back.

This is from the 85th minute of the Everton match and we're still in our 325. How are we going to create an overload? How do we tactically solve a 541? It's surely not going to be drumming on with the 325.

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I respectfully say.....I am not so sure about that, depending on the context

Its rarely one thing, But I think Unai, is well equipped to deal with that, just not sure the players are doing all they can.

Our forwards have to show a willingness to do more....now that can be more than one thing, but it does include moving around the point that midfielders can find them, hiding behind opposition defenders is not the way.

Unai is one of the best coaches around, but he can only tell them what to do....he relies on them doing it.

Its very easy for forwards to employ a passive approach, when the going gets tough...now I am not saying that is the case, but it could be......forwards have to find a way, of disrupting organised defences, it could be Football IQ, iT could be movement, Itcould be physical aggression, it could be pace.....but they have to find something. A glum face, and a conclusion that its impossible, is not an option from a committed player.

Fire in the belly, finds a way.

However, I will confess, playing in front of these low blocks, is pointless, they have to get around the back, or make runs between the lines, to get the ball over the top....to do they they have to be alert, and willing to make runs.

I'm sure we'll crack it.

 

There's only ever so much a forward is going to surrounded by 3 defenders. Sure, you could hope for a 'moment of magic' but our pattern of play in the final third is slow, ponderous, and without solutions because we are outnumbered in the various sectors of the pitch.

This really doesn't have much to do with fire or aggression. Look at the snapshot above and we're asking these players to create moments of magic instead of having an established pattern of play in the final third to break down these low blocks.

[villan95]

14 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I think the biggest limitation we have is our inability to invert our fullbacks to play a 235 similar to what City do and now Spurs do with Udogie and Porro. Without that extra man in the midfield, we rarely overload a side or a line of their defense. Liverpool also frequently send both fullbacks forward and only have a 2-1 rest defense (VVD, Konate and whoever is playing the #6).

Especially when teams play a variation of only one striker, it is pointless to have 3 CB's at the back.

This is from the 85th minute of the Everton match and we're still in our 325. How are we going to create an overload? How do we tactically solve a 541? It's surely not going to be drumming on with the 325.

I think at Everton we did try and change things by going with 2 'attacking' full backs for the last half an hour. I would assume Moreno is also high up in that particular move but just out of shot. Despite the numbers we have forward there it doesn't look that difficult to defend against though. Not enough width especially.

[TRO]

5 hours ago, DJBOB said:

There's only ever so much a forward is going to surrounded by 3 defenders. Sure, you could hope for a 'moment of magic' but our pattern of play in the final third is slow, ponderous, and without solutions because we are outnumbered in the various sectors of the pitch.

This really doesn't have much to do with fire or aggression. Look at the snapshot above and we're asking these players to create moments of magic instead of having an established pattern of play in the final third to break down these low blocks.

I disagree, but it has to be allied to desire and savvy.....what's wrong playing a ball to be contested over the Everton line in to the free space....Thats not rocket science or football IQ, its down to willingness to challenge for the opportunity.....To force errors, you have to "force", and that means challenging by close contact.

you cannot stand off and expect to get a ricochet, a stumble, a fumble or a loose ball........when we are so far off them, they have time to recover themselves......We have to turn the ball over, and that means winning it.

Ollie is the only one,in that frame,  on the shoulder, cash is in a decent position, but all the rest,  are all in front of Evertons players, thats not using your " loaf" or driving with conviction......its passive, no threat.....where's the intention to challenge for the ball? they are way off the Everton players, who look comfortable...Theres a gap between Branthwaite and Mylenko, you could drive a train through...why is Mcginn, not in there, poised to run on?

Its not moments of magic, or patterns of play or tactics.....its down to good old fashioned desire, to hurt them, and that means taking up the right positions to capitalise on the work, that got us up the pitch....The final third, requires bottle....we have the talent.

Edited January 18 by TRO

[DJBOB]

Sorry @TRO just disagree. We are not in good positions in the final third. 
 
Watching Liverpool, they really commit to the wide overloads and stay with just a 2-1 rest defense so that they have ample attackers. Until we replicate that kind of aggressive positioning, we will continue to struggle in a sustained attack. 
 
Compare the three positions below, all against low blocks. Liverpool, Villa, City. We have far too many players back.

 

 

 

[TRO]

14 hours ago, DJBOB said:

Sorry @TRO just disagree. We are not in good positions in the final third. 
 
Watching Liverpool, they really commit to the wide overloads and stay with just a 2-1 rest defense so that they have ample attackers. Until we replicate that kind of aggressive positioning, we will continue to struggle in a sustained attack. 
 
Compare the three positions below, all against low blocks. Liverpool, Villa, City. We have far too many players back.

 

 

 

I agree....I watched that game too.

We are not in good positions in the final third, lateley......we don't MAKE things happen either, but we don't have a finisher like Jota.

They retreat at a far quicker pace than we do, and in an organised fashion. We can't get back quick enough, we showed that at Old Trafford...so we can't commit to all out attack, also those teams recover the ball better, to give the defence time to reshape....its an accumulation of things not just one.

They also show far more aggression, in turn overs, and closing down. I know their passing is so concise and the use of the long ball is so accurate...but their forwards create a threat.

There was so much to marvel at in that game, that we clearly have a way to go....not to mention how clinical Jota is.

When a team is in that kind of form, there are many things to admire. The boy Bradley, could be a budding SG...they have so much right, in their game.....surprised how much they use the long ball.

Ps I thought their football intelligence was on song too, their passing and moving was too much for Palace.

Edited January 22 by TRO

[MaVilla]

Genuinely, who of our squad do ppl think are actual top notch/top4 competing quality, in our squad? (i dont mean the odd game quality, i mean consistent quality)

I would say, Martinez, Moreno, Pau, Konsa, Kamara, Luiz, Tielemans, Diaby.

If we added 3 absolute top quality players to that above list, i would think we are there or there abouts, on paper.

I do think we have more players who are top 6/8/10 players, but to be brutally honest, i think we have fewer that are genuinely top 4/6 quality, consistently, thats not saying the others wouldnt be excellent squad depth, or part of a squad to challenge top 4/6, im more talking about the starting 11.

I know we are top 4 now, but i also think that part of that is Emery, since he joined, has pretty much eked 100% out of this squad and got them operating at their absolute limit.

Personally, i think to actually operate consistently at top 4/6 level, we are missing a few top quality players.

 

[Hobsons Choice]

14 hours ago, DJBOB said:

Sorry @TRO just disagree. We are not in good positions in the final third. 
 
Watching Liverpool, they really commit to the wide overloads and stay with just a 2-1 rest defense so that they have ample attackers. Until we replicate that kind of aggressive positioning, we will continue to struggle in a sustained attack. 
 
Compare the three positions below, all against low blocks. Liverpool, Villa, City. We have far too many players back.

 

 

 

Well just looking at those stats the most obvious thing to me is that the other teams shown, Liverpool and Man City, had scorelines which equalled or bettered their xG, and we didn't. That suggests a lack of clinical finishing, rather than a lack of chance creation. 

We had a greater xG than Liverpool, and they scored 4! 

 

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

Genuinely, who of our squad do ppl think are actual top notch/top4 competing quality, in our squad? (i dont mean the odd game quality, i mean consistent quality)

I would say, Martinez, Moreno, Pau, Konsa, Kamara, Luiz, Tielemans, Diaby.

If we added 3 absolute top quality players to that above list, i would think we are there or there abouts, on paper.

I do think we have more players who are top 6/8/10 players, but to be brutally honest, i think we have fewer that are genuinely top 4/6 quality, consistently, thats not saying the others wouldnt be excellent squad depth, or part of a squad to challenge top 4/6, im more talking about the starting 11.

I know we are top 4 now, but i also think that part of that is Emery, since he joined, has pretty much eked 100% out of this squad and got them operating at their absolute limit.

Personally, i think to actually operate consistently at top 4/6 level, we are missing a few top quality players.

 

I would say Diaby on present form is not one of those....whether he finds the form, to be the threat, we had hoped for, I don't know....but right now, he is passive in much of his actions.

I think its more about evolving, and we are just WIP ...we are not up to the levels of the Top teams, despite our league position.

I have a hunch, UE is looking to evolve us in to something more akin to being more consistent...On our day, we are great, off our day and we are mid table.

The recent run of results and perfromances, has given us something to think about....yes, we are missing players, but so are others too.

I think this run in....is going to be difficult for us. I hope we stay with it, but I see wins, slipping to draws.....This is where the big boys, show their worth.

I hope, I am wrong, but I fear the momentum, that got us to where we are, will fade.

The next match against Newcastle, will tell us a lot.

[TRO]

34 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

Well just looking at those stats the most obvious thing to me is that the other teams shown, Liverpool and Man City, had scorelines which equalled or bettered their xG, and we didn't. That suggests a lack of clinical finishing, rather than a lack of chance creation. 

We had a greater xG than Liverpool, and they scored 4! 

 

I think is suggests more than just one thing.

I believe as a striker, if you don't have the clinical finishing of a fowler, aguero, Henry, or a Drogba....you have to make up for it in other ways.

Andy Gray and Peter Withe, we not clinical finishers, but they scored regularly....because they had other things going for them.

Right now, Our front 3 should be scoring more goals, even with the talent they have, but they seem to be full of melancholy to me....its too easy to blame the service, or lack of creativity....its a two way street, They have to work with intelligence and desire, and make things happen, not wait for them to happen.....They need to work defenders, mentally and physically.

I get the impression at times from our front 3 after a failure to score, its " Thats the way it goes".....No it doesn't,have to be,  only if you let it be.

 

Edited January 22 by TRO

[Bazmonkey]

i have said this before in other chats.

We lack the cutting edge in the final third due to the simple fact we do not move the ball quick enough.  We allow the opposition to set and wait for us...it all most become a stand off.....we wont move until they move...they wont move until we do....its not other teams parking the bus.

Using the liverpool as mentioned above game as example...they move the ball quick to create space and unsettle the opposition back line.

We have done this at times but to often its slow....and the lack of movement also doesn't help.  This is even when our wingers get the ball compared to the oppo...one has space to run at...ours...often have to come back...thus killing the play and having to reset.

Dont get me wrong....at times patient play is good but as all good teams have shown...they stay patient and then attack at pace...we seem to generally be at one pace all game.

If we do have a oppo team that will set easily we need to drag them around...create the space and have that one player who can find that line breaking pass....Teilemens showed this when he came on at Everton....we stated getting in round the back and looking more dangerous in that final third.

[DJBOB]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

I agree....I watched that game too.

We are not in good positions in the final third, lateley......we don't MAKE things happen either, but we don't have a finisher like Jota.

They retreat at a far quicker pace than we do, and in an organised fashion. We can't get back quick enough, we showed that at Old Trafford...so we can't commit to all out attack, also those teams recover the ball better, to give the defence time to reshape....its an accumulation of things not just one.

They also show far more aggression, in turn overs, and closing down. I know their passing is so concise and the use of the long ball is so accurate...but their forwards create a threat.

There was so much to marvel at in that game, that we clearly have a way to go....not to mention how clinical Jota is.

When a team is in that kind of form, there are many things to admire. The boy Bradley, could be a budding SG...they have so much right, in their game.....surprised how much they use the long ball.

Ps I thought their football intelligence was on song too, their passing and moving was too much for Palace.

Yes - player quality is important too and perhaps a facet of Unai's thinking with the overly defensive shape of our lineup when we face low blocks. It's a different matter altogether when you have VVD and Konate patrolling your back line or Dias/Akanji or even Saliba/Gabriel compared to our 3rd and 4th choices (Diego and Lenglet). Unai probably keeps Konsa back as an extra defender because of the lack of quality there.

[DJBOB]

2 hours ago, HKP90 said:

Well just looking at those stats the most obvious thing to me is that the other teams shown, Liverpool and Man City, had scorelines which equalled or bettered their xG, and we didn't. That suggests a lack of clinical finishing, rather than a lack of chance creation. 

We had a greater xG than Liverpool, and they scored 4! 

 

That's some of it and Liverpool clearly have prioritized ball striking as a necessary evil. So for all of the completely oddball things that Nunez does, when he hits it clean, it comes off well. Kind of similar to the flashes we've seen from Zaniolo and Duran. They have very powerfull ball striking, especially Duran, but their decision making is poor whereas Watkins and Diaby are in the right places but their shots are always of the safer variety.

Bailey, too, has some good shot making but is often not in the right places enough.

But in general - I was speaking about the position maps for all 3 of those matches and how Liverpool and City are comfortable defending with just 2 CB's and maybe 1 CDM whereas if you look at the Villa one, we have 6 defenders and only 4 attackers. Until we can sort that out, we will continue to look 'slow' or 'uninspired'

Unai, I'm sure knows this, but has chosen to stay more defensive against these low blocks. Perhaps he doesn't like leaving just Lenglet and Diego by themselves. Perhaps he prefers to keep control of the match instead of forging ahead like Liverpool do. It's not much to do with long ball, short ball, aggression, inspiration, etc. Those are a bit of Gerrard monikers - you have to 'want' it or look them in the eye nonsense.

At the base level, we do not outnumber or overload the opponents in the final third - and for me - it is a choice on Unai's part - a gamble to stay safe instead of pushing for the goal.

Edited January 22 by DJBOB

[Hobsons Choice]

2 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

That's some of it and Liverpool clearly have prioritized ball striking as a necessary evil. So for all of the completely oddball things that Nunez does, when he hits it clean, it comes off well. Kind of similar to the flashes we've seen from Zaniolo and Duran. They have very powerfull ball striking, especially Duran, but their decision making is poor whereas Watkins and Diaby are in the right places but their shots are always of the safer variety.

Bailey, too, has some good shot making but is often not in the right places enough.

But in general - I was speaking about the position maps for all 3 of those matches and how Liverpool and City are comfortable defending with just 2 CB's and maybe 1 CDM whereas if you look at the Villa one, we have 6 defenders and only 4 attackers. Until we can sort that out, we will continue to look 'slow' or 'uninspired'

Unai, I'm sure knows this, but has chosen to stay more defensive against these low blocks. Perhaps he doesn't like leaving just Lenglet and Diego by themselves. Perhaps he prefers to keep control of the match instead of forging ahead like Liverpool do. It's not much to do with long ball, short ball, aggression, inspiration, etc. Those are a bit of Gerrard monikers - you have to 'want' it or look them in the eye nonsense.

At the base level, we do not outnumber or flood the opponents in the final third - and for me - it is a choice on Unai's part - a gamble to stay safe instead of pushing for the goal.

I get that, sure, and it's a fair point, but my thinking is- should we be trying to increase chances created even further, at the expense of defensive solidity, when the stats already have us on a par or better than our peers on that metric. xG is telling us there that we have had enough quality chances to beat everton there easily, but we've not taken them. 

From a purely aesthetic point of view, when I see a striker from any team spurn lots of chances, I don't watch a game and think 'he needs more chances', I think 'he should be putting those away'. I'm not sure how you coach that in honesty, or if it's just a matter of personnel, but I don't necessarily think we need a radical overhaul of the system to create more. The stats show we're doing fine. Maybe call it an off day, against Everton, I don't know. Our goals for/against in the league don't really point to a defensive or offensive weakness either, really. 

nb while looking at stats just I've noticed that Bailey is smashing his personal xG. Most other folk are there or there about. Cash is underachieving in terms of goals.    

[DJBOB]

7 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

I get that, sure, and it's a fair point, but my thinking is- should we be trying to increase chances created even further, at the expense of defensive solidity, when the stats already have us on a par or better than our peers on that metric. xG is telling us there that we have had enough quality chances to beat everton there easily, but we've not taken them. 

From a purely aesthetic point of view, when I see a striker from any team spurn lots of chances, I don't watch a game and think 'he needs more chances', I think 'he should be putting those away'. I'm not sure how you coach that in honesty, or if it's just a matter of personnel, but I don't necessarily think we need a radical overhaul of the system to create more. The stats show we're doing fine. Maybe call it an off day, against Everton, I don't know. Our goals for/against in the league don't really point to a defensive or offensive weakness either, really. 

nb while looking at stats just I've noticed that Bailey is smashing his personal xG. Most other folk are there or there about. Cash is underachieving in terms of goals.    

There's a bit of chicken and egg there with risking more attackers for defensive solidarity. I think it's in part both -we lack some pieces due to injury or just non-personnel. As much as he wants the 3 points, I would agree that I would be very uncomfortable leaving just Diego and Lenglet to defend by themselves in a counter. Diego is at risk for a mistake and Lenglet is not the the paciest. For the same reason - I think that's why we were a little more solid at the tail end of last year against the same low blocks (Forest at home and Everton away comes to mind). Mings/Konsa/Cash had so much pace to deal with any counter-threats and Mings was a duel-winning defender, able to take away opponents in the air and on the ground. So we sacrificed some progressiveness (lower xG) but maintained better control with Mings/Konsa/Cash. Additionally - for all his faults - Cash could occasionally leave the back 3 and provide himself as an extra attacker.

So like you said - I don't think a radical overhaul is needed - but Unai is clearly making some choices in terms of how we deploy ourselves against low blocks and it is on the safer side.

But our non-penalty xG is dropping. We are now 7th on the table in npxG so despite our goals scored, the underlying stats are starting to reflect that we are creating less chances as the season goes on.

Edited January 22 by DJBOB

[Hobsons Choice]

8 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

There's a bit of chicken and egg there with risking more attackers for defensive solidarity. I think it's in part both -we lack some pieces due to injury or just non-personnel. As much as he wants the 3 points, I would agree that I would be very uncomfortable leaving just Diego and Lenglet to defend by themselves in a counter. Diego is at risk for a mistake and Lenglet is not the the paciest. For the same reason - I think that's why we were a little more solid at the tail end of last year against the same low blocks (Forest at home and Everton away comes to mind). Mings/Konsa/Cash had so much pace to deal with any counter-threats and Mings was a duel-winning defender, able to take away opponents in the air and on the ground. So we sacrificed some progressiveness (lower xG) but maintained better control with Mings/Konsa/Cash. Additionally - for all his faults - Cash could occasionally leave the back 3 and provide himself as an extra attacker.

So like you said - I don't think a radical overhaul is needed - but Unai is clearly making some choices in terms of how we deploy ourselves against low blocks and it is on the safer side.

But our non-penalty xG is dropping. We are now 7th on the table in npxG so despite our goals scored, the underlying stats are starting to reflect that we are creating less chances as the season goes on.

Yeah you might be right about the defense. I've been quite impressed by Lenglet, but I must admit Diego has been disappointing for me since his return. During our capitulation against United he gave the ball away several times, including one which led directly to the goal. I think Pau, with his progressive passing adds so much to our build up, and Konsa has a turn of pace, so, yeah hopefully we can get back to where we should be soon.