Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Marka Ragnos]

42 minutes ago, duke313 said:

The answer is width.

I don’t think the oppositions we’re facing are inane enough to take the bait and stretch themselves through width. It’s a fairly standard counter to the low block, and opposition managers will be completely ready for it. And they have been ready. 

Edited January 10 by Marka Ragnos

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Tom13 said:

I don't agree that McGinn and Ramsey are great creators specifically against a low block. Diary also hasn't showed he's great against a low block.

Cash - creative? pull the other one 

You can take your confused reaction to my post and have it straight back.

McGinn, is not a creator.....ok

Ramsey on form is not a creator....ok

Cash is certainly not blessed defensively, so what is he?.....I would say, when he plays wing back, he looks for Ollie.

If your saying they are not very good creators?, then thats a different call.

That's a bit ungrateful asking me to take back my gift, Tom....at least I reacted.

 

Edited January 10 by TRO

[TRO]

10 minutes ago, duke313 said:

The answer is width.

It is....but you have to get around the back of them too.....playing down the flanks, stopping and playing in front of them, is not the answer, and thats what we did.....but I still think a 1-0 win and we wouldn't be talking so frustratingly about it.

[Tom13]

16 minutes ago, TRO said:

McGinn, is not a creator.....ok

Ramsey on form is not a creator....ok

Cash is certainly not blessed defensively, so what is he?.....I would say, when he plays wing back, he looks for Ollie.

If your saying they are not very good creators?, then thats a differents call.

That's a bit ungrateful asking me to take back my gift, Tom....at least I reacted.

Being effective against a low block is a different skillset than just being classed as 'creative'. I wouldn't put creativity as one of McGinn or Ramsey's top skills - no.

'Looking for Ollie' is not creativity.

[DJBOB]

The low block is not something in isolation - and in particular - Boro copy catted both Sheffield and Legia (who has done it the best against us) in their specific shapes (532 or 523 depending on our set up).

Though the concept is nothing new (teams have been doing it against Pep, Klopp, and now Arteta for years and years) - it is something that we have struggled against and, in particular, not something we probably train continuously for. You can see how sharp we are against teams that press us when we have our starting XI but even at full strength, there's a lack of pre-rehearsed patterns of play against low blocks that we do have when building out from our keeper. Our set pieces and corner routines have been so so against these low blocks as well - which is something that is sorely needed.

I'm not particularly concerned with our goals against record. We're 5th in the league in actual goals allowed, 5th in xGA.

We allow the 3rd fewest touches in the attacking 3rd (behind City and Arsenal), 4th fewest in our penalty area (behind City, Liverpool, and Arsenal).

We're 3rd in shots allowed (behind City and Arsenal).

Where we are weak is an obvious area - leading the league in goals per shot and shots on target %.

Aside from Liverpool and Newcastle, we will at minimum split the series against the teams around us. The problem then becomes securing 3 points a majority of times against these low block teams.

[PieFacE]

The fact that teams are playing a low block against us should be seen as a huge compliment to both this squad and to Unai. It's going to take time for us to figure out how to play against it but the best way to practice is in real games. Once we crack it though it will make us an even better team. 

[villan95]

Torres and Tielemans will make a big difference against low blocks, at least I hope. Arguably our 2 best passers of the ball who play passes between the lines.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Tom13 said:

Being effective against a low block is a different skillset than just being classed as 'creative'. I wouldn't put creativity as one of McGinn or Ramsey's top skills - no.

'Looking for Ollie' is not creativity.

then it seems our interpretation, is slightly different.

maybe, you need to be more specific.

[ChesterDad]

On 08/01/2024 at 09:11, Stevo985 said:

But none of that is regarding the high line. 

We struggle against teams who play a low block. It's not unique for this to be a thing for good teams.

Not playing a high line won't change that.

 

The high line isn't just about the defence. It's so key to how we play with the ball as well. So yes, I do find it perplexing that people are questioning it

I say again - are people really questioning the validity of a high line? I’m sure you would agree that it’s anxiety provoking in so much that if it goes wrong, the opposition are quite likely to get a shot away? In the course of a match, people’s anxieties are naturally running higher than normal, so a high line is quite easily going to give rise to this, when it sometimes gets compromised.

[Marka Ragnos]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

But even Emery has acknowledged it, so it shouldn't be dismissed as not being a thing

I agree. I just think what he means when he says low block is different than what many ordinary observers think of as low blocks. I think "low block" often has this reputation for being this silly obstructive tactic used by weak squads. There are low blocks -- and there are low blocks. As an East African friend of mine says, "issues have issues." I think we are dealing with some of the most skillful and disciplined types of low blocks that have ever been played, and the traditional methods of dismantling them won't work. Which takes us back to questions of less conventional skills and precision tactics in front of goal. 

This goal by PSG from a few years ago against at least six defenders exemplifies the kind of passing chains needed to overcome today's disciplined defenses, at least to my untutored mind.

 

Edited January 10 by Marka Ragnos

[villan95]

3 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

There are low blocks -- and there are low blocks. As an East African friend of mine says, "issues have issues." I think we are dealing with some of the most skillful and disciplined types of low blocks that have ever been played, and the traditional methods of dismantling them won't work. Which takes us back to questions of less conventional skills and precision tactics in front of goal. 

This goal by PSG from a few years ago against at least six defenders exemplifies the kind of passing chains needed to overcome today's disciplined defenses, at least to my untutored mind.

 

I spy Luca Digne in the first one

[Marka Ragnos]

Another incredible goal showing players working in impossibly tight non-spaces and somehow completing their passes. This will defeat a well-executed "low block," at least sometimes. Here there's utterly no question of stretching defenses or pulling them out of shape. Everything is way too fast. It's funny how Willian still takes that same sort of bending toward the right post shot today. I bet Chelsea wish they had this sort of intuitive team cohesion today lol.

 

Edited January 10 by Marka Ragnos

[CVByrne]

People all suddenly worried about low blocks because of Sheffield United game and then Boro. I think Pau is key to us because of speed and accuracy of his switch pass. 

Also Liverpool take a lot of shots from edge of box against low blocks because they believe if you have enough good strikers of the ball a low block unsights the GK more and there is a bigger risk of deflection

We seem to be able to still score in every game. Late ones against Sheffield and Boro but still goals. 

[villan95]

10 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

People all suddenly worried about low blocks because of Sheffield United game and then Boro. I think Pau is key to us because of speed and accuracy of his switch pass. 

Also Liverpool take a lot of shots from edge of box against low blocks because they believe if you have enough good strikers of the ball a low block unsights the GK more and there is a bigger risk of deflection

We seem to be able to still score in every game. Late ones against Sheffield and Boro but still goals. 

Forest, Zrinjski twice, Wolves and even Brentford until their red card too. So it is more than those 2 but granted we do still usually find a way through eventually.

[DJBOB]

54 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Another incredible goal showing players working in impossibly tight non-spaces and somehow completing their passes. This will defeat a well-executed "low block," at least sometimes. Here there's utterly no question of stretching defenses or pulling them out of shape. Everything is way too fast. It's funny how Willian still takes that same sort of bending toward the right post shot today. I bet Chelsea wish they had this sort of intuitive team cohesion today lol.

 

Both of these are nice but they're not even what I think of settled patterns of play against a low block. That's just great skill to be honest. I'm thinking more set patterns or tactical tweaks to beat low blocks earlier like Pep's change below - either by adding another attacker or pushing a defender to the attack or midfield to overload their back line.

 

Unai has been very hesitant to break from his 325 or 3box3 against these low blocks - preferring the defensive solidity of the 3-2 base until maybe the last 10-15 minutes of a match if we're losing.

He needs to find a way to add either a 6th attack on our forward line (2-2-6) or move one of our CB's into midfield so that they are closer to the edge of the box to either shoot or assist (2-3-5).

Only on a few occasions as he resorted to this (Zrinjski at home, Tieleman pushed wide right to overload the right side a 3-1-6 // AZ at home, Cash pushed up to provide a 3rd midfielder 2-3-5 // Bournmouth away Cash underlapped frequently with Diaby out wide which led to the Watkins equalizer 2-2-6)

So it's not as if Unai doesn't know what to do, but seems to want to keep it very late as to make sure we don't get countered and be down 2 goals. Pragmatism, but very nervy for the fans.

Edited January 10 by DJBOB

[CVByrne]

7 minutes ago, villan95 said:

Forest, Zrinjski twice, Wolves and even Brentford until their red card too. So it is more than those 2 but granted we do still usually find a way through eventually.

We scored in all of those games other than Forest.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, ChesterDad said:

I say again - are people really questioning the validity of a high line? I’m sure you would agree that it’s anxiety provoking in so much that if it goes wrong, the opposition are quite likely to get a shot away? In the course of a match, people’s anxieties are naturally running higher than normal, so a high line is quite easily going to give rise to this, when it sometimes gets compromised.

There’s several posts in this thread that seem to be suggesting the high line is something that needs to be fixed, rather than something that should be celebrated

[Stevo985]

7 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

We scored in all of those games other than Forest.

But even Stevie Wonder can see we still struggled to break those teams down even if we did eventually score

[Marka Ragnos]

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

Both of these are nice but they're not even what I think of settled patterns of play against a low block. That's just great skill to be honest. I'm thinking more set patterns or tactical tweaks to beat low blocks earlier like Pep's change below - either by adding another attacker or pushing a defender to the attack or midfield to overload their back line.

 

Unai has been very hesitant to break from his 325 or 3box3 against these low blocks - preferring the defensive solidity of the 3-2 base until maybe the last 10-15 minutes of a match if we're losing.

He needs to find a way to add either a 6th attack on our forward line (2-2-6) or move one of our CB's into midfield so that they are closer to the edge of the box to either shoot or assist (2-3-5).

Only on a few occasions as he resorted to this (Zrinjski at home, Tieleman pushed wide right to overload the right side a 3-1-6 // AZ at home, Cash pushed up to provide a 3rd midfielder 2-3-5 // Bournmouth away Cash underlapped frequently with Diaby out wide which led to the Watkins equalizer 2-2-6)

So it's not as if Unai doesn't know what to do, but seems to want to keep it very late as to make sure we don't get countered and be down 2 goals. Pragmatism, but very nervy for the fans.

Yes, well said, and yes, I'm not sure those goals offer really more than demonstrations for the kinds of short passes a team can make in cramped spaces to overcome tight configurations of defenders. It's funny because I saw this FA Cup goal by Man City (I know,  but it was on a general sport show) vs. Huddersfield as one that demonstrates 7 defending players vs. a "box" of four attacking Citeh players set upon the penalty box on the right. BUT BUT BUT that box on the right suddenly falls apart and morphs fluently into a new box (or triangle, depending on how you diagram it out) in the centre before the goal. It's pretty amazing. You can see players not only making passes between other players, but shapes passing to shapes as a way to link areas of the pitch. 

 

 

Edited January 10 by Marka Ragnos

[DJBOB]

20 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Yes, well said, and yes, I'm not sure those goals offer really more than demonstrations for the kinds of short passes a team can make in cramped spaces to overcome tight configurations of defenders. It's funny because I saw this FA Cup goal by Man City (I know,  but it was on a general sport show) vs. Huddersfield as one that demonstrates 7 defending players vs. a "box" of four attacking Citeh players set upon the penalty box on the right. BUT BUT BUT that box on the right suddenly falls apart and morphs fluently into a new box (or triangle, depending on how you diagram it out) in the centre before the goal. It's pretty amazing. You can see players not only making passes between other players, but shapes passing to shapes as a way to link areas of the pitch. 

 

 

It's a great example and prior to the goal, you can see how aggressive City's positioning is. Their rest defense only has 4 players instead of the usual 5 we have and so they attack the back line with 6 players. They create a right side overload with a 4v4 action and you can almost see how you would set this up as a rondo. Once they play through, there's not enough Huddersfield players to cover the limited space and the cutback is too quick to get into position.

In our same set up, you would have at most 3 Villa players on the right side but frequently only 2 vs 4 - some combination of Diaby/Bailey or Bailey/Cash or McGinn/Cash. You can see the disadvantage we put ourselves in in favor of keeping more players that can defend a counter with our 3-2 rest defense. This is what I mean in terms of creating a pattern of play either through adding more attackers or creating a side overload.

Pep prefers a side overload as he can defend with the same number of players but attack more aggressively on one side. In the still image at 6:29, there's a 4v4 on one side and then you have 5 Huddersfield players marking Alvarez, the eventual scorer. It's an imbalanced defense but any team would be reluctant to get out of shape.

Edited January 10 by DJBOB