Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Tom13]

Certain areas of the XI are set to become less and less predictable if tonight is anything to go by. Very nice problem to have!

[It's Your Round]

To be honest I was never massively interested in the fine details of football tactics and strategy (Steve Bruce 2018), but also me.

However I’m really fascinated in Emery’s approach and how flexible it is. I’ll happily watch or read any in depth analysis of it, it’s just so impressive. That Premier League article explains it well. We really do have an elite coach who’s leading the way in his thinking. 

[Kingman]

Gobby Cabbage was in his consistent pillock form yesterday chatting shite about our alternating formations 

Anything bar 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 and he has to take his shoes and socks off to work it out 

[CVByrne]

Who played with Watkins as the second forward/10 on Thursday? Was it Tielemans but playing deeper than Diaby would. 

[allani]

Just a note to remind everyone that we've played 16 matches so far this season and have scored a minimum of 3 goals in 9 of them!  Absolute madness.  The slow build up and passing it out from the back has received more than its share of criticism - but I think it is safe to say that Emery knows exactly what he is doing!

[villan95]

On 28/10/2023 at 09:35, CVByrne said:

Who played with Watkins as the second forward/10 on Thursday? Was it Tielemans but playing deeper than Diaby would. 

Yeah it was Tielemans up with Watkins. Generally stayed pretty high up but a couple of occasions he was back doing important defensive work.

[cheltenham_villa]

at risk of sounding like im moaning (im not i love Unai), one thing that has surprised me is how slowly we are using the bench. At home we have been 3-4 goals clear in a number of games early on, often by 60 minute mark. Seems strange that we are not bringing on more subs at that point, a good chance to rest players and integrate the squad more.

Like many others, i watched Dendonkers intro yesterday nervously. But if we need to trust him in Unais system then he need low pressure minutes when opportunities present themselves.

[ender4]

1 hour ago, cheltenham_villa said:

at risk of sounding like im moaning (im not i love Unai), one thing that has surprised me is how slowly we are using the bench. At home we have been 3-4 goals clear in a number of games early on, often by 60 minute mark. Seems strange that we are not bringing on more subs at that point, a good chance to rest players and integrate the squad more.

Yes i was a little surprised as well. 

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, cheltenham_villa said:

at risk of sounding like im moaning (im not i love Unai), one thing that has surprised me is how slowly we are using the bench. At home we have been 3-4 goals clear in a number of games early on, often by 60 minute mark. Seems strange that we are not bringing on more subs at that point, a good chance to rest players and integrate the squad more.

Like many others, i watched Dendonkers intro yesterday nervously. But if we need to trust him in Unais system then he need low pressure minutes when opportunities present themselves.

Unai has been pretty consistent and will substitute at the 60-65 minute marker when losing and closer to 70-75 when we’re winning. 
 
Too many times, substituting at the 60-65 minute marker when winning can not only disrupt the flow of the current players on the pitch and so a comfortable 2-0 or 3-0 will suddenly give way to disjointed play. 
 
Substituting at 70 on not only keeps the winning team on the pitch longer, but wastes more time killing off the game. 

[cheltenham_villa]

Just now, DJBOB said:

Unai has been pretty consistent and will substitute at the 60-65 minute marker when losing and closer to 70-75 when we’re winning. 
 
Too many times, substituting at the 60-65 minute marker when winning can not only disrupt the flow of the current players on the pitch and so a comfortable 2-0 or 3-0 will suddenly give way to disjointed play. 
 
Substituting at 70 on not only keeps the winning team on the pitch longer, but wastes more time killing off the game. 

the thing that surprised me was the changes are probably coming nearer to 80 minutes in games that were comfortable.

against Luton we saw Tielemans and Carlos on 79 mins, Donk and Traore on 90 mins all @ 3 nil.

against West Ham we saw Bailey and Tielemans after the 76 minute at 3-1

against Brighton we saw Ramsey on 57 but Duran and Tielemans not introduced until 79th and 90th minutes respectively when we were 4-1.

At home we certainly have more changes to introduce the squad, save some tired legs and give opportunities for more to learn about games under Unai. I continue to respect his approach, just a surprise to me. 

[TRO]

On 24/10/2023 at 21:12, DJBOB said:

Actually a decent article for the official PL site.

I'm still wondering what the exact plan is for the low pressure mid block. Goes against many of the tactical principles of the defensive line (high pressure, high line - low pressure, drop). I think one thing to keep an eye on is if teams deploy the 'empty midfield' approach that Newcastle and Liverpool used. Newcastle built with 5 at the back and one or two holders in the midfield. A wide 523 that tried to circumvent Villa's strength in the middle. Liverpool, in the official PL site link, used a 4-1-5, again avoiding our midfield strength.

Wolves tried the same way but Emery was quicker to go with 6 at the back, content with giving up quick counter-attacks in exchange for more numbers at the back so they weren't outnumbered on the back line.

Interesting observation.

[TRO]

5 hours ago, cheltenham_villa said:

at risk of sounding like im moaning (im not i love Unai), one thing that has surprised me is how slowly we are using the bench. At home we have been 3-4 goals clear in a number of games early on, often by 60 minute mark. Seems strange that we are not bringing on more subs at that point, a good chance to rest players and integrate the squad more.

Like many others, i watched Dendonkers intro yesterday nervously. But if we need to trust him in Unais system then he need low pressure minutes when opportunities present themselves.

He seems slow to react to me....for whatever reason. His style seems a bit lumbering, quick feet in this league will have him making errors.

I don't think he is up to the level we are seeking.

We are all ecstatic to what we are doing....but you should be able to point out flaws. without sounding critial.

I suspect Unai himself will be, thats part of the WIP.

Edited October 30, 2023 by TRO

[MrBlack]

51 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

the thing that surprised me was the changes are probably coming nearer to 80 minutes in games that were comfortable.

against Luton we saw Tielemans and Carlos on 79 mins, Donk and Traore on 90 mins all @ 3 nil.

against West Ham we saw Bailey and Tielemans after the 76 minute at 3-1

against Brighton we saw Ramsey on 57 but Duran and Tielemans not introduced until 79th and 90th minutes respectively when we were 4-1.

At home we certainly have more changes to introduce the squad, save some tired legs and give opportunities for more to learn about games under Unai. I continue to respect his approach, just a surprise to me. 

Taking the Luton example, post those 90 minute changes we conceded almost straight away. Now I'm not saying it's those players' fault, but the disruption caused by it could have contributed to them getting an attack that led to our defensive error.

Make all those changes in 79 minutes, and concede then, gives us another 12 minutes to defend a 2 goal lead with the opposition having new found confidence. He doesn't like to disrupt the flow of a game, and it so far seems to be working. He rotates the starting 11 a fair old amount in cup games, and that seems to be his preferred way to give some a rest.

With our style of play, an extra 10 minutes at the end of a game when the opposition has given up probably isn't that taxing so I don't think it's going to be a major issue for us.

Also, when we get better quality back on the bench in Moreno, Ramsey, and eventually Buendia then I'm sure we'll see him use it more. 

[cheltenham_villa]

4 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Taking the Luton example, post those 90 minute changes we conceded almost straight away. Now I'm not saying it's those players' fault, but the disruption caused by it could have contributed to them getting an attack that led to our defensive error.

Make all those changes in 79 minutes, and concede then, gives us another 12 minutes to defend a 2 goal lead with the opposition having new found confidence. He doesn't like to disrupt the flow of a game, and it so far seems to be working. He rotates the starting 11 a fair old amount in cup games, and that seems to be his preferred way to give some a rest.

With our style of play, an extra 10 minutes at the end of a game when the opposition has given up probably isn't that taxing so I don't think it's going to be a major issue for us.

Also, when we get better quality back on the bench in Moreno, Ramsey, and eventually Buendia then I'm sure we'll see him use it more. 

thats what im debating in my head, the current strategy seems to be multiple subs late on. These guys are seeing pressure and having to get to the pace of the game. Its a bold more but involving more, earlier on may allow them to build some comfort and understanding,

Agree that Ramsey, Moreno may see more game time.

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, cheltenham_villa said:

the thing that surprised me was the changes are probably coming nearer to 80 minutes in games that were comfortable.

against Luton we saw Tielemans and Carlos on 79 mins, Donk and Traore on 90 mins all @ 3 nil.

against West Ham we saw Bailey and Tielemans after the 76 minute at 3-1

against Brighton we saw Ramsey on 57 but Duran and Tielemans not introduced until 79th and 90th minutes respectively when we were 4-1.

At home we certainly have more changes to introduce the squad, save some tired legs and give opportunities for more to learn about games under Unai. I continue to respect his approach, just a surprise to me. 

Probably just for similar reasons to keep the game state as is and following along the preconceived plan.

I forget where I saw it but I watched an hour of one of Pep's assistants go through their match planning and it wouldn't surprise me if Unai did something similar. Conventional logic is that players need rest but as long as their out of match fitness remains high, then most substitutions are made for tactical reason as opposed with anything to do with player fitness and experience.

The caveat being that Zaniolo is almost always substitute and looks dead tired after half-time.

Edited October 30, 2023 by DJBOB

[cheltenham_villa]

1 minute ago, DJBOB said:

Probably just for similar reasons to keep the game state as is and following along the preconceived plan.

I forget where I saw it but I watched an hour of one of Pep's assistants go through their match planning and it wouldn't surprise me if Unai did something similar. Conventional logic is that players need rest but as long as their out of match fitness remains high, then most substitutions are made for tactical reason as opposed with anything to do with player fitness and experience.

 

its a good point, Unai isnt moaning about tiredness. If he did id suggest he has opportunities to rotate players. If the strategy is to use a smaller core group and give them more minutes, then im all for that. 

My main worry isnt about protecting player tiredness, its more about involving more players so that when they do play, they are all familiar with the system etc.

 

[DJBOB]

1 minute ago, cheltenham_villa said:

its a good point, Unai isnt moaning about tiredness. If he did id suggest he has opportunities to rotate players. If the strategy is to use a smaller core group and give them more minutes, then im all for that. 

My main worry isnt about protecting player tiredness, its more about involving more players so that when they do play, they are all familiar with the system etc.

 

There is no replicating the intensity of a match vs training - that is true.

I don't think any amount of training or match fitness will help certain players (Dendoncker/Chambers/etc).

I'm concerned about or depth in the middle and at back more than anything. For me - some players clearly aren't a fit especially as they've been here for some time. Unai found a useful way to use Tielemans against AZ but he's probably seen enough of Dendoncker and Chambers to know that we're going to be in a dire position if we have to use them extensively.

[Pongo Waring]

I think we should sack Emery and get @cheltenham_villa in for a few weeks.

[cheltenham_villa]

14 minutes ago, Pongo Waring said:

I think we should sack Emery and get @cheltenham_villa in for a few weeks.

happy to give it a go but i want the same wages and pay out if it doesnt go right.

[rubberman]

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

most substitutions are made for tactical reason as opposed with anything to do with player fitness and experience.

Yeah. I assume the trackers they wear give feedback on each player's condition during the game so the coaches can see if someone is going to start blowing out their arse before it happens.

I am kind of surprised that in an era of more subs, we haven't seen more of a shift to bringing on groups of `finishers' like they do in egg-chasing. eg get all-action players like McGinn to give everything towards a 60/70min finish at a higher intensity knowing that they will be coming off then so don't need to hold back to last out 90.