Team shape, tactics and personnel

[KAZZAM]

37 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I've been trying to figure out a potential midfield which could involve both Coutinho and Buendi all day, without nullifying both, and making us too soft in the middle.

 

     Coutinho       Watkins       Buendia

 

                             Ramsey

 

                Luiz                 Iroegbunam

 

Young           Mings           Konsa         Cash   

 

Swap any of the " sitting " midfielders for the likes of Nakamba, Sanson, McGinn etc.

I like that lineup and formation. I would like Jacob Ramsey to sit and transition into attack tho instead of being and out and out AMC. And Douglas to sit and DLP while Tim Shields the back 4.

[TRO]

18 hours ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Could we play Marv and Tim together?

its an interesting question......but Marv migh be pre-occupied in chaperoning Tim.

[barry'sboots]

On 26/04/2022 at 11:26, BOF said:

I think our problem is we have too many attacking midfielders.

McGinn? A number 10, Ramsey, 8, Buendia, 10, Luiz, 8, Coutinho, 10, Bailey, 10, Sanson, 8, Chukwuemeka, 10, Traore, 10.

That leaves Nakamba the only actual 6 and Iroegbunam is more box to box and starts in the 6 position at u23 but not sure where he'll migrate to with the seniors.

The above gives an extra problem when your preferred formation is 433 or a variant of that.

I don't disagree that we need a proper "6".  I think everybody realises that and Stevie does as well.  I see:

6. One of Bissouma/Phillips/Kondogbia/Kamara (ideally) with Marv as back up and Tim out on loan

8's . We play two from four of: SJM, Luiz, JJ or Sanson.

10. We have Coutinho, Buendia, Bailey and maybe one other.

I see Traore moving on - he is great when he is on but just not consistent enough or high enough energy to play in the PL for me.

I am not sure what Chukie is - is he an 8 or a 10??  He really, in my book, needs a loan to a top Championship side but he probably doesn't agree.  May be academic to debate anyway if he is off.

I think a midfield three of 

--------------------------- Bissouma --------------------------                 OR               -------------- Luiz --------- Bissouma -----------

-------- Luiz ---------------------------------------- SJM ------                                     ----------------------- SJM ----------------------------

could be really effective.

Luiz (or Sanson as cover/rotation) maybe that bit more disciplined/almost a second sitter/double pivot, allowing SJM (or Ramsey as cover/rotation) to drive further forward and link up with the 10's in front?

[barry'sboots]

On 27/04/2022 at 14:42, TRO said:

I agree, with your point.

They still raise questions

• Is Nakamba good enough for a first team nailed on?
• Is Tim developed enough to be playing every week?

Still important players in my reconing, but sustained first team, right now, not so sure.

If we sign a No6 with sufficent quality, they can morph in to an 8 depending on the dynamics of the game and move with the reading of the game, better quality usually gives more flexibility......Most top players can play more than one role, with competence.

I assume that he was talking about the run in and saying that he would rather play with an inexperienced or lesser "6" than an "8" playing out of position, which I agree with (I think!).  Obviously, next year, we will have a world class "6" to sit behind two of our "8"s! 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

I assume that he was talking about the run in and saying that he would rather play with an inexperienced or lesser "6" than an "8" playing out of position, which I agree with (I think!).  Obviously, next year, we will have a world class "6" to sit behind two of our "8"s! 

top class 6's can morph in to 8's too.

The very best, who play in those roles, have so many strings to their bow.

[TRO]

On 25/04/2022 at 07:14, CVByrne said:

 

I discussed this earlier in the thread about why it's too big of a change to move to 4 2 3 1 now. To do that means the full backs need to change how they play and the midfielders. With the flat 3 in midfield they cover for the full backs getting forward in every attack. I do agree our squad is built for the formation so it is the best fit for our players but Gerrard is too far down the road with the attacking full backs and flat 3 midfield. I don't think they are three 6's I still think it's more of a blend in there in possession with Ramsey getting forward more and the other two moving to cover for that. Also vice versa if McGinn gets forward (less regularly). 

I still think the extreme attacking full backs system doesn't suit a team of our level in the league. I would prefer one to get forward and the other to tuck into midfield and that is how to best use 4 2 3 1 while keeping a 5 / 5 defence / attack split

The only think I can think of for changing to attacking full backs is, you have to start somewhere and at some time......its clear, we haven't got the midfield to play it, without leaving ourselves open.....I can only think this midfield will be changed next season and he is readying for that......assuming you can't change everything in one go.......I accept, we seem to have backwards, but sometimes, that happens in order to go forwards. I too don't think we have 3 x 6's, but whatever it is.....too many have the same attributes.....blending is when they vary, not the same.

I just hope we can buy in some real variation to our play, and then maybe the tactics can be manipulated a lot better.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame coaches,like some are, when the squad is so imbalanced.....covering for that weakness, cannot be easy.

I think balance and blend is what we need to get right.....most of the others stuff, will then come good and cohesion, timing and confidence will return.

[maqroll]

I wish Gerrard would try playing our two playmaker together at least once, to get an idea of whether it can work or not.

[VillaParkAvenue]

8 hours ago, maqroll said:

I wish Gerrard would try playing our two playmaker together at least once, to get an idea of whether it can work or not.

But he has started them together many times. Against Arsenal, Newcastle, Watford, Leeds, Everton and Man United at least.

Edited April 29, 2022 by VillaParkAvenue

[eholm]

17 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

I don't disagree that we need a proper "6".  I think everybody realises that and Stevie does as well.  I see:

6. One of Bissouma/Phillips/Kondogbia/Kamara (ideally) with Marv as back up and Tim out on loan

8's . We play two from four of: SJM, Luiz, JJ or Sanson.

10. We have Coutinho, Buendia, Bailey and maybe one other.

I see Traore moving on - he is great when he is on but just not consistent enough or high enough energy to play in the PL for me.

I am not sure what Chukie is - is he an 8 or a 10??  He really, in my book, needs a loan to a top Championship side but he probably doesn't agree.  May be academic to debate anyway if he is off.

I think a midfield three of 

--------------------------- Bissouma --------------------------                 OR               -------------- Luiz --------- Bissouma -----------

-------- Luiz ---------------------------------------- SJM ------                                     ----------------------- SJM ----------------------------

could be really effective.

Luiz (or Sanson as cover/rotation) maybe that bit more disciplined/almost a second sitter/double pivot, allowing SJM (or Ramsey as cover/rotation) to drive further forward and link up with the 10's in front?

Bissouma is not a specialist 6 though. He’s more of an 8 who has decent defensive qualities. We need a proper CDM AND a better 8. Buying  Bissouma as an 8 in addition to a 6 would be where SG is going I would hope. 

[OutByEaster?]

38 minutes ago, eholm said:

Bissouma is not a specialist 6 though. He’s more of an 8 who has decent defensive qualities. We need a proper CDM AND a better 8. Buying  Bissouma as an 8 in addition to a 6 would be where SG is going I would hope. 

I think there's room for a six who can get forward or a defensive eight - I think Gerrard wants to play with more than one six - people seem to have in their heads this extremely defensive six that sits in front of the back four like an extra centreback, I don't think that's what we're going for, I think he'd like a midfield with two holding sixes, both of whom are very capable on the ball - I think there will be times when we play with three players like that, and indeed I think we'd do it most of the time if it weren't for how much Gerrard likes Ramsey.

 

[VillaParkAvenue]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think there's room for a six who can get forward or a defensive eight - I think Gerrard wants to play with more than one six - people seem to have in their heads this extremely defensive six that sits in front of the back four like an extra centreback, I don't think that's what we're going for, I think he'd like a midfield with two holding sixes, both of whom are very capable on the ball - I think there will be times when we play with three players like that, and indeed I think we'd do it most of the time if it weren't for how much Gerrard likes Ramsey.

 

Has Gerrard said he wants a DM like that, or have people made that conclusion after Nakamba played the first games with him in charge? I often see references to Gerrard's system, but it sometimes feels like I missed the initial presentation or something.

[Tom13]

On 27/04/2022 at 15:49, IrishVilla10 said:

Could we play Marv and Tim together?

I don't see why not. Tim looks to have more than enough ability on the ball to make it work.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

                         Ollie

 

Bailey           Coutinho           Buendia

 

         Ramsey          Iroegbunam

 

Young      Mings       Chambers     Cash

 

Iroegbunam falling deeper when Ramsey bombs forward, and even deeper when the Fullbacks bomb forward.

CBs moving slightly wider when Fullbacks bomb forward as well with Timo sweeping.

Chambers for ball playing ability.

McGinn of the bench for Bailey, in the same position if it's not working to infuse energy, tenacity and goal threat.

Sod it lets go gung ho!

Edited April 29, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[TomC]

On 26/04/2022 at 18:20, smg said:

I know it’s an age thing , but as I trawl around the threads I keep seeing references to 6’s, 8’s and 10’s, what the f***s that all about I also see references to a double pivot now and again, what happened to the simple game ? Perhaps that’s why we are struggling at the moment ? It might be an idea to just keep it simple on the pitch and the supporters to just  get behind the team. 

Hey, it's the tactics thread...we wouldn't be here if we didn't like the nuances and details...

[TomC]

On 28/04/2022 at 09:07, barry'sboots said:

I am not sure what Chukie is - is he an 8 or a 10??  He really, in my book, needs a loan to a top Championship side but he probably doesn't agree.  May be academic to debate anyway if he is off.

I fear that he thinks he needs to move to a SuperLeague club and then get loaned out to a Championship side.

[Sulberto21]

2 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

                         Ollie

 

Bailey           Coutinho           Buendia

 

         Ramsey          Iroegbunam

 

Young      Mings       Chambers     Cash

 

Iroegbunam falling deeper when Ramsey bombs forward, and even deeper when the Fullbacks bomb forward.

CBs moving slightly wider when Fullbacks bomb forward as well with Timo sweeping.

Chambers for ball playing ability.

McGinn of the bench for Bailey, in the same position if it's not working to infuse energy, tenacity and goal threat.

Sod it lets go gung ho!

Can people put the keeper at the top in future I thought JV had gone mad and eccentric lol.

Ollie in goal???  3-2-4 formation ??? Emi in a totally free role?? Chambers has provided us with the best finish this season though lol. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Sulberto21

[OutByEaster?]

On 27/04/2022 at 15:49, IrishVilla10 said:

Could we play Marv and Tim together?

I think we can play Marv, Tim and Doug together.

[IrishVilla10]

46 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think we can play Marv, Tim and Doug together.

I think JJ stops this from happening but I’d like to see it 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

24 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said:

I think JJ stops this from happening but I’d like to see it 

Unless we drop the strikers and go full Man City. Lol

[tomsky_11]

23 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think Gerrard wants to play with more than one six - people seem to have in their heads this extremely defensive six that sits in front of the back four like an extra centreback, I don't think that's what we're going for, I think he'd like a midfield with two holding sixes, both of whom are very capable on the ball

 

Not sure there’s much to suggest we are looking for two holding midfielders. Afaik Gerrard didn’t player with two holding midfielders at Rangers. And he hasn’t set up this way with us yet either.

The shape so far as been fairly consistent, with some minor tweaks here and there. I imagine we’ve stuck to this shape despite it perhaps not suiting the personnel because it’s exactly how Gerrard intends to us to line up next season, and he’s finding  out now which players adapt to this system and which players can’t.

22 hours ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

Has Gerrard said he wants a DM like that, or have people made that conclusion after Nakamba played the first games with him in charge? I often see references to Gerrard's system, but it sometimes feels like I missed the initial presentation or something.

You might have missed the presentation, funnily enough.

You can find videos online of Michael Beale (who’s system I think it probably is more than Gerrard’s) doing coaching presentations about various elements of how he likes to set up his teams and the reasons for them. These plus the way Gerrard’s Rangers set up and various analyses of this system done by others suggested pretty heavily how our team under Gerrard might look.

Friend I sit next to at VP and I had seen some of this stuff and discussed it before Gerrard’s first game. Probably within 15-20 minutes of that first game we were almost ticking off a list most of the things we thought we’d see from a Gerrard (or Beale) team based on what we’d seen and read beforehand.