Team shape, tactics and personnel

[PerryBarrPet]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

Coutinho was an opportunity signing and we was right to go for it.....but paradoxically, its not what we are crying out for.....Phillipe Coutinho will not fix our soft centre.....He is an obvious up grade and an opportunity not to be missed, but we need players to help us control things.

Dean was the same, signing Traore, Bailey, Sanson, ....all technically gifted players....but it didn't address the underlying issues of our team.

We have players in our squad, others can only dream of......but with their journeymen,opposition,  they are giving us a hard time.

What we need will not necessarily cost huge bucks, but we have to have the Nous, to spot what is required.......Messi, Mbappe, Neymar, and the type, will not fix our inherent problems.

as an example, We sign Chambers......West Ham sign Dawson........We sign Traore, West Ham sign Bowen.....my point is, they sign Robust, rugged players who can mix it up.......Ours are just lightweight, show ponies.

We have to get some players in who can play obviously, but can equallly roll their sleeves up and Lead.

Chambers was another opportunity,signing like Danny Ings.....when are we going to sign players we actually need and will enhance the squad, for the things we are struggling with?

When? When the summer window opens - I hope. This is top priority.

[TRO]

25 minutes ago, Dale said:

Frankly. I think this is nonsense. 

I think they're set up to fail and easy to play against not due to mental weakness but lack of structure.

We've spent the past 3-4 years talking about the positive character of this squad. They're still the same people. Gabby doesn't play for us. We come back from behind, we don't go missing entirely, that's not it. Otherwise we'd have lost against Utd and Leeds.

Right now the issue is the system. 

Quite Frankly, I think that is nonsense.....We beat Leicester, Brighton, Norwich and Crystal Palace with it, but players attitudes and form changes.

We are playing with too many attack minded players, without the wherewithal of defence minded players....that will eventually challenge the mentality of the team, they all look to each other to do the dirty bits....and it ends up being passive.

We have tried under Dean and now SG in his infancy, just about every system available.....but you cannot change a players natural tendency.

Put to one side, Mings and Konsa......Who in the side has a natural nose to defend?......That for me is the essence of our problem and no system will compensate for that....We have a midfield, who all want to attack, and stay back under duress.

We will have to agree to disagree....because I think "system" in our case is a red herring.....its about the players themselves.

PS If Gerrard could find the fitness to play in the holding role for us, something he did in his twighlight days as a player.....you would see a huge difference.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by TRO

[duke313]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

Quite Frankly, I think that is nonesense.....We beat Leicester, Brighton, Norwich and Crystal Palace with it, but players attitudes and form changes.

We are playing with too many attack minded players, without the wherewithal of defence minded players....that will eventually challenge the mentality of the team, they all look to each other to do the dirty bits....and it ends up being passive.

We have tried under Dean and now SG in his infancy, just about every system available.....but you cannot change a players natural tendency.

Put to one side, Mings and Konsa......Who in the side has a natural nose to defend?......That for me is the essence of our problem and no system will compensate for that....We have a midfield, who all want to attack, and stay back under duress.

We will have to agree to disagree....because I think "system" in our case is a red herring.....its about the players themselves.

 

That's the recruitment teams fault then for not bringing in these types of players in January.

[Sam-AVFC]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

Quite Frankly, I think that is nonesense.....We beat Leicester, Brighton, Norwich and Crystal Palace with it, but players attitudes and form changes.

We are playing with too many attack minded players, without the wherewithal of defence minded players....that will eventually challenge the mentality of the team, they all look to each other to do the dirty bits....and it ends up being passive.

We have tried under Dean and now SG in his infancy, just about every system available.....but you cannot change a players natural tendency.

Put to one side, Mings and Konsa......Who in the side has a natural nose to defend?......That for me is the essence of our problem and no system will compensate for that....We have a midfield, who all want to attack, and stay back under duress.

We will have to agree to disagree....because I think "system" in our case is a red herring.....its about the players themselves.

PS If Gerrard could find the fitness to play in the holding role for us, something he did in his twighlight days as a player.....you would see a huge difference.

 

Because of the system we bought Digne in and pushed out Targett, another more defence minded player. Cash is much better in defence, but being pushed way up the field.

If Sean Dyche tried to play like Man City and kept getting smashed, surely you wouldn't put it all on the players?

If the players aren't good enough to play the way we're trying to play then the manager has to change something.

Saying 'if we had one of the best midfielders in PL history playing there we would be good' doesn't make the point you think it does. It's not his job to play anymore, it's his job to manage what he has.

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said:

We also brought in quality this winter. Who did Newcastle bring in that was even remotely close to Coutinho or Digne? So I don't buy that. Were they in good form, sure. Still doesn't excuse our inability to even generate one quality attack all game. 

This lost shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum either. It's been coming for some time. Our xG  production has been poor since Steven has taken over.  We have struggled to produce more than 2 xG in any match other than Norwich. Even in games where we score freely Leeds finished with almost a full xG more than us. 

15 games remain. That's enough for Steven to reverse this trend. If he doesn't, it would be foolish to let him conduct a rebuild of our squad this summer. 

Its alright bringing in "Quality " it has to be the "right Quality"...meaning the right players to fix the issues.....Coutinho and Digne are attack minded footballers, great players.....but we needed defence minded players.

Newcastle had defensive issues and in the main, thats where they have spent their money, centre back, 2 full backs, Midfield.

Newcastle, didn't beat Aston villa.......Aston Villa, beat Aston Villa

[PerryBarrPet]

1 minute ago, duke313 said:

That's the recruitment teams fault then for not bringing in these types of players in January.

Bring them in by paying through the nose? That would be really silly and justify your approbation but there is no reason why this should not be addressed in the summer.

[Sam-AVFC]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I honestly thing the issue is the league is just very strong and every game is extremely difficult unless you’re the top 3. We have some good players but then who doesn’t ? Our fans are struggling to deal with this concept and just think we have a right to be turning over teams like Newcastle and Leeds.
 

How do we fix the issues? I have no idea.

You 'honestly think the issue' is that Shelvey, Joelinton and Willock is just too strong a midfield for us to be able to even compete against, let alone dominate?

[Vive_La_Villa]

5 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

You 'honestly think the issue' is that Shelvey, Joelinton and Willock is just too strong a midfield for us to be able to even compete against, let alone dominate?

Nah we were poor and should play better. But these games happen. We’ve had a whole year of it pretty much. Maybe our players are just not as good as we all thought?

Good player are consistent. Ours seem to be 8-9’s one game then 4-5 the next like most the league unfortunately.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Vive_La_Villa

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, duke313 said:

That's the recruitment teams fault then for not bringing in these types of players in January.

Don't start me off.....I could scream about what we have bought over the last so many windows

Traore, Sanson, Bailey, Coutino, Buendia, Trez, Ings, Watkins, Digne, .....all fine attack minded players.

but where's the defenders, I don't mean converted wingers to full back, I mean dedicated defenders.....Callum Chambers......Oh OK.

[VillaParkAvenue]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its alright bringing in "Quality " it has to be the "right Quality"...meaning the right players to fix the issues.....Coutinho and Digne are attack minded footballers, great players.....but we needed defence minded players.

Newcastle had defensive issues and in the main, thats where they have spent their money, centre back, 2 full backs, Midfield.

Newcastle, didn't beat Aston villa.......Aston Villa, beat Aston Villa

So basically we should have kept Targett…?

I agree they strengthened in the right places. Bruno G will probably be a huge player for them and he has only played about five minutes so far.

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Because of the system we bought Digne in and pushed out Targett, another more defence minded player. Cash is much better in defence, but being pushed way up the field.

If Sean Dyche tried to play like Man City and kept getting smashed, surely you wouldn't put it all on the players?

If the players aren't good enough to play the way we're trying to play then the manager has to change something.

Saying 'if we had one of the best midfielders in PL history playing there we would be good' doesn't make the point you think it does. It's not his job to play anymore, it's his job to manage what he has.

No you have read it wrong.....It meant he was a player who could do the job.....his reputation is an irrelevance.

It is his job to manage....but right now, he has inherited a squad with very questionable resources of defensive minded players....I accept the January window is now looking a bit imbalanced, under those circumstances.

Quite honestly, the Digne signing surprised me, not his quality, but his type.....but I accept he is a fine footballer, its just that the timing of Nakamba being out and us having no defensive nous in midfield, leaves the signing strange to me....I accept your questioning.....However Targett has shown his defensive frailties too, none more obvious than against Watford.....Cash is a converted winger and at times for me, it shows, quite often beaten down that right side....crosses come in quite regular and when we have late assistance , he can look exposed.

I think the options left open to the manager are limited....due to the imbalance of the whole squad.....so while changing things is the popular shout right now.....its a case of changing the bowler, but you don't change the bowling.

I think we have a real problem right now.....and I think its been coming, The January window, has done nothing to help that, despite the quality of signing being great.

I think the early wins were a typical manager bounce, we have now reverted back to type.......I hope he can find something from somewhere to reverse this " easy to play against" tag.

[TRO]

29 minutes ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

So basically we should have kept Targett…?

I agree they strengthened in the right places. Bruno G will probably be a huge player for them and he has only played about five minutes so far.

A decision to bring in Digne was made, and he didn't want to stay , so went to Newcastle....SG is Reported as saying he didn't want him to go.

Its a tricky one for me, because Digne is a better allround footballer, I accept that.....Targett is not a consistently good full back as we seen at Watford, where he was ripped one...and since Jacks departure, his form has been questionable, but I accept he has more defensive presence....With Coutinho on the same flank, its has left us with less physicality, I see that.

but we have to start strengthening in the right places and we have failed to do that for some time now.

Edited February 16, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

You 'honestly think the issue' is that Shelvey, Joelinton and Willock is just too strong a midfield for us to be able to even compete against, let alone dominate?

They are physically more adept than ours, yes....they are possibly more likely to challenge for the ball or play the man.

As for stronger, it depends what is defined by that.

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, hippo said:

In general it's a tweak though.

If Gerarrd is planning a massive clear out of existing players - to implement his formation - that's risky imo. It's not as if Stevie G has a track record at this level.

Sure he needs a DM or two & maybe a striker. But if we are talking 6 or 7 players at first team level - I'd question that myself.

He must be able to get a tune of sorts out of what he has.

some of the players have been dragged down imo.....by the issues not being addressed in successive windows.

John McGinn and Douglas Luiz have been played out of position for far too long..and it might have got to them...and is now affecting the whole team.

The players you mention, have been skipped over for some time now and eventually, it will rear its ugly head and I think it has.

I don't think a massive clearout is needed, but specialist players in designated positions is needed.....not stop gaps, becoming the norm.

[bobzy]

47 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

You 'honestly think the issue' is that Shelvey, Joelinton and Willock is just too strong a midfield for us to be able to even compete against, let alone dominate?

You can't expect the reality to match the "on paper" in every scenario.  It's why surprise results happen.

FWIW, I think we did compete against them.  Both teams looked poor, but they scored a deflected free kick and thus won the game.  It pretty much had 0-0 all over it.

[Laughable Chimp]

50 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

You 'honestly think the issue' is that Shelvey, Joelinton and Willock is just too strong a midfield for us to be able to even compete against, let alone dominate?

I mean, we did dominate possession in the end. I don't think the midfield was the issue. We just couldn't craft chances.

[WallisFrizz]

6 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I mean, we did dominate possession in the end. I don't think the midfield was the issue. We just couldn't craft chances.

It was a dire performance but weren’t our possession stats the highest we’ve had all season at least under Gerrard, like 63% or something? Like you said we were just completely ineffective.

[TRO]

I am tired of listening to the old chesnut rolled out......We need quality.

What does that exactly mean....it's so nebulous is not true......we are struggling against teams, with less quality than us.

We need specialist players in certain positions, doing what it says on the tin......E.G.if you have a board of Directors all comprising of technical men.....who is going to sell the darn stuff?

What is the point of signing the worlds best goalscorer, before a goal Keeper.......when its a 'keeper we haven't got.

Even SG mooted, I've never seem so many wingers....its been a joke.....and we are now stuck with it, for now.

[hippo]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am tired of listening to the old chesnut rolled out......We need quality.

What does that exactly mean....it's so nebulous is not true......we are struggling against teams, with less quality than us.

We need specialist players in certain positions, doing what it says on the tin......E.G.if you have a board of Directors all comprising of technical men.....who is going to sell the darn stuff?

What is the point of signing the worlds best goalscorer, before a goal Keeper.......when its a 'keeper we haven't got.winger

Even SG mooted, I've never seem so many wingers....its been a joke.....and we are now stuck with it, for now.

Wingers, Wingers, everywhere 

Let's buy a wide fullback.

[M_Afro]

45 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am tired of listening to the old chesnut rolled out......We need quality.

What does that exactly mean....it's so nebulous is not true......we are struggling against teams, with less quality than us.

We need specialist players in certain positions, doing what it says on the tin......E.G.if you have a board of Directors all comprising of technical men.....who is going to sell the darn stuff?

What is the point of signing the worlds best goalscorer, before a goal Keeper.......when its a 'keeper we haven't got.

Even SG mooted, I've never seem so many wingers....its been a joke.....and we are now stuck with it, for now.

Spot on mate. Each window that passes without us sorting our midfield out makes me wonder what is happening. I do trust the board and think we have been unlucky in our pursuits but it is frustrating.

I think that SJM, Luis, Ramsey and Sanson are all probably of PL quality but there is not a balance there that ever looks like a half decent midfield combination.

We lack pace and power all over the pitch too. All of our players have similar attributes. All of the best teams need balance. The good thing is that our players are saleable assets. Gerrard will get rid of the right ones and replace them with players that offer a better overall balance. 

We also lack courage and leadership. We have been so intent on signing the right characters that we are a right soft touch. 
 

Next season will be much better. I am certain of that. We really aren’t far away and Gerrard will get it right. This season is basically an audition for our existing players. On current form, not many are doing themselves any favours!