fruitvilla Posted July 9 Author Share Posted July 9 22 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said: I think his idea of the meaningless of the universe is still clarifying in today's context and instructive and brilliant -- and yet also incorrect. "Meaningless" is one of those words which we should clarify. Meaning in the sense of dictionary definitions seems to exist. And there is meaning in the sense of purpose. Now does the "moon" have a purpose? Does a small rock? Humans seem to imbue themselves with purpose. I am doing it now, to communicate my thoughts. We can anthropomorphize animals with purpose, eg a pack of wolves hunting together to get a kill. Yet we can point to every atom and molecule and argue it is intrinsically without purpose. Of course, some philosopher will come along and go on about how purpose is an emergent property of some complex biochemistry. And yet the reductionist viewpoint is not answered, and we just wave the magic word emergence over a difficult question. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogso Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 47 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said: I'm not a philosopher! If I can add and subtract, divide and multiply, am I a mathematician? Perhaps. So although I would agree you are not a philosopher, you are clearly engaged enough with philosophy to be able to compose your thoughts and critiques on philosophy which I'd say makes you a better philosopher than most people are mathemicians. Your point on Nietzsche potentially being dangerous in the wrong hands is an interesting one. He died in 1900 and was quite mad long before then. I've always wondered what he would have made of Hitler and his will to power and his 'evil'. I don't believe there's any evidence Hitler read Nietzsche's work, although I believe there is for other members of the Nazu party particular in it's formative years, but their close proximity in history and geography stands to reason that it's quite possible...was there a better example of the will to power in the 20th century than what Hitler inflicted upon the world? He had a belief and he stopped at nothing to achieve what he thought was the best for him and his people. Dangerous is perhaps an understatement. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted July 9 VT Supporter Share Posted July 9 55 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: "Meaningless" is one of those words which we should clarify. Meaning in the sense of dictionary definitions seems to exist. And there is meaning in the sense of purpose. Now does the "moon" have a purpose? Does a small rock? Humans seem to imbue themselves with purpose. I am doing it now, to communicate my thoughts. We can anthropomorphize animals with purpose, eg a pack of wolves hunting together to get a kill. Yet we can point to every atom and molecule and argue it is intrinsically without purpose. Of course, some philosopher will come along and go on about how purpose is an emergent property of some complex biochemistry. And yet the reductionist viewpoint is not answered, and we just wave the magic word emergence over a difficult question. Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted July 9 VT Supporter Share Posted July 9 34 minutes ago, hogso said: I don't believe there's any evidence Hitler read Nietzsche's work, although I believe there is for other members of the Nazu party particular in it's formative years, but their close proximity in history and geography stands to reason that it's quite possible. Which also brings us to a fascism-associated philosopher whom I find almost too complex and difficult -- Martin Heidegger. I know he is one of the founders of so-called phenomenology, like Edmund Husserl. I don't have the time at the moment because I'm off to a meeting in a second, but I would love to discuss him with you chaps in the near future. He's one of those philosophers whose work intrigues me, but I'm not sure I ever really understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted July 12 VT Supporter Share Posted July 12 Uh, quick question: What is evil? Would genuinely be helped to hear how (or if) people define it (socially, spiritually, ecologically, religiously, politically, etc.) or reject the entire assumption of the question a priori. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted July 12 Author Share Posted July 12 2 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said: Uh, quick question: What is evil? Quick answer ... a figment of our collective imagination. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bielesibub Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 2 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said: Uh, quick question: What is evil? Would genuinely be helped to hear how (or if) people define it (socially, spiritually, ecologically, religiously, politically, etc.) or reject the entire assumption of the question a priori. I cheated and asked ChatGPT "What is evil?" That question - are you my father-in-law masquerading asa Villa fan from across the pond?, Dave? Dave is that you?. Quote "Evil" is a complex and multifaceted concept, often defined in various ways depending on philosophical, religious, cultural, and personal perspectives. Here are some common understandings of evil: 1. Moral Evil: Actions or behaviours that are considered morally wrong or harmful, such as murder, theft, or deceit. This type of evil is typically associated with the intentional infliction of harm or suffering on others. 2. Natural Evil: Events or phenomena that cause suffering or harm but are not caused by human actions, such as natural disasters, diseases, and accidents. These are often contrasted with moral evil. 3. Religious and Theological Views: Many religions have specific teachings about evil. For example, in Christianity, evil is often seen as a force opposing God, sometimes personified as Satan or the Devil. In other religious traditions, evil might be understood as ignorance, imbalance, or the result of karma. 4. Philosophical Perspectives: Philosophers have debated the nature of evil for centuries. Some, like Immanuel Kant, view evil as a violation of moral law. Others, like Friedrich Nietzsche, see it as a construct that arises from societal norms and values. 5. Psychological and Sociological Views: Psychologists and sociologists may explore evil in terms of individual and group behaviors, mental illness, social influences, and environmental factors that contribute to harmful actions. 6. Cultural Interpretations: Different cultures have unique interpretations of what constitutes evil based on their historical, social, and ethical contexts. What one culture considers evil might be seen differently in another. Despite these varied interpretations, common elements often associated with evil include intentionality, harm, and the violation of moral or ethical standards. The concept remains deeply tied to human experiences of suffering, injustice, and malevolence. I've used ChatGPT quite a bit recently, to get answers, but mostly for an opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogso Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 2 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said: Uh, quick question: What is evil? Would genuinely be helped to hear how (or if) people define it (socially, spiritually, ecologically, religiously, politically, etc.) or reject the entire assumption of the question a priori. Can't help but be steered back to Nietzsche on the topic of evil, but how about this from the man who I believe surpassed him - Karl Jung: The spirit of evil is fear, negation, the adversary who opposes life in its struggle for eternal duration and thwarts every great deed, who infuses into the body the poison of weakness and age through the treacherous bite of the serpent; he is the spirit of regression, who threatens us with bondage to the mother and with dissolution and extinction in the unconscious. For the hero, fear is a challenge and a task, because only boldness can deliver from fear. And if the risk is not taken, the meaning of life is somehow violated From Symbols of Transformation 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted July 12 VT Supporter Share Posted July 12 2 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said: Uh, quick question: What is evil? A 'quick question' that has taxed the greatest minds of the world throughout thousands of years of human history, and has generated intense philosophical debate and millions of pages of arcane writing, without ever getting near a satisfactory resolution. Should be a doddle for a bunch of Brummies on a football forum... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted July 12 Author Share Posted July 12 8 minutes ago, mjmooney said: Should be a doddle for a bunch of Brummies on a football forum Off-topic, but can it be found at St Andrew's? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted July 12 Author Share Posted July 12 23 minutes ago, hogso said: Can't help but be steered back to Nietzsche on the topic of evil, but how about this from the man who I believe surpassed him - Karl Jung: The spirit of evil is fear, negation ... Carl does not cut it for me ... but he does come up with some interesting modes of thought. Ultimately, we ascribe evil to something we don't like (have an aversion to). And good to something we don't like. (have an affinity for). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted July 12 VT Supporter Share Posted July 12 (edited) 19 minutes ago, mjmooney said: A 'quick question' that has taxed the greatest minds of the world throughout thousands of years of human history, and has generated intense philosophical debate and millions of pages of arcane writing, without ever getting near a satisfactory resolution. Should be a doddle for a bunch of Brummies on a football forum... OK, let's start small. Can we all agree that if nothing else, evil is always a human choice? Edited July 12 by Marka Ragnos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted July 12 VT Supporter Share Posted July 12 4 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: Carl does not cut it for me ... but he does come up with some interesting modes of thought. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted July 12 Author Share Posted July 12 Just now, Marka Ragnos said: OK, let's start small. Can we all agree that if nothing else, evil is always human choice? No! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted July 12 VT Supporter Share Posted July 12 15 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: No! Not sure I follow, but it sounds like again you're suggesting it's an imaginary figment and thus doesn't exist to define? I understand that. I don't really see an imaginary status as incompatible with a definition of evil. But for me, on a pragmatic level, the human choice element is everything. To echo Voltaire, an earthquake killing thousands isn't evil in itself. It doesn't involve a choice. Making a choice to leave a child to die in a brick house vulnerable to collapse during an earthquake would be an evil action, in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted July 12 Author Share Posted July 12 1 minute ago, Marka Ragnos said: I don't really see an imaginary status as incompatible with a definition of evil. I agree one hundred percent ... sure there are concepts for evil. But I don't see defining things I don't like as evil, is particularly beneficial. Yes ... when you say human choice, the question that immediately springs to mind is do you believe in free will? ie the ability to have done otherwise in any given situation? In world that is dominated by cause and effect the notion of evil is not particularly coherent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follyfoot Posted July 12 VT Supporter Share Posted July 12 4 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said: Uh, quick question: What is evil? Would genuinely be helped to hear how (or if) people define it (socially, spiritually, ecologically, religiously, politically, etc.) or reject the entire assumption of the question a priori. DVB’s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 1 hour ago, Marka Ragnos said: OK, let's start small. Can we all agree that if nothing else, evil is always a human choice? Can you be born evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follyfoot Posted July 12 VT Supporter Share Posted July 12 34 minutes ago, Xela said: Can you be born evil? Trevor Francis aka the antichrist ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted July 12 Author Share Posted July 12 4 hours ago, bielesibub said: I've used ChatGPT quite a bit recently, to get answers, but mostly for an opinion. Just out of curiosity ... ask gpt how morality can exist in a deterministic world? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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