Lamare Bogarde

[Pongo Waring]

Now he's in the BBC team of the week I would start him every game. 

[useless]

I only saw the highlights initially, and thought him getting criticsim for the goal was harsh, the winger beat him with good wing player that happens, and happens all the time to fullbacks, it's part of the game, was just very good play from Mavididi, who by the way was one of the best players in the Championship last season, he will do the same to far more experienced players than Bogarde this season, if Bailey did something similar to a defender, no one would be saying the defender made a mistake, they would be talking about good play from Bailey

Having now seen the whole game I thought he did well, the positives outweight the negatives, talk of it being worst debut ever is ridiculous, not even close, wasn't a bad performance by any measurement, never mind a youngster making their debut at Premer League level and playing out of postion, can honestly say if we'd have signed Geertruid and he put in the same performance I would have no concerns

His passing in general was decent enough, people just become focused on the few bad passes, I think he lost the ball five times, but three of those were him trying to do something positive, defence splitting pass, running with the ball, and cross, it's normal to som lose the possession in those scenarios, the other two were bad give aways, and one wasted a very positive situation for us, but those things happen in games, in other positives he also carried the ball forward very well on a number of occassions, including in the build up to our second goal, and he got some important blocks and tackles

He may well not play rightback for us again this season, but I don't think it will be because Emery thinks he played poorly, it will be because he only played there in the first place because both Cash and Carlos were unavailable, if Carlos was fit, he would have played in central defence with Konsa at rightback, I'm guessing the reason Bogarde played ahead of Kosta is that Emery sees him as closer to a Konsa style rightback than Kosta, and thought that that was the right approach for this game

Room for improvement of course, but I think he can be proud of his debut

[Delphinho123]

14 minutes ago, useless said:

I only saw the highlights initially, and thought him getting criticsim for the goal was harsh, the winger beat him with good wing player that happens, and happens all the time to fullbacks, it's part of the game, was just very good play from Mavididi, who by the way was one of the best players in the Championship last season, he will do the same to far more experienced players than Bogarde this season, if Bailey did something similar to a defender, no one would be saying the defender made a mistake, they would be talking about good play from Bailey

Having now seen the whole game I thought he did well, the positives outweight the negatives, talk of it being worst debut ever is ridiculous, not even close, wasn't a bad performance by any measurement, never mind a youngster making their debut at Premer League level and playing out of postion, can honestly say if we'd have signed Geertruid and he put in the same performance I would have no concerns

His passing in general was decent enough, people just become focused on the few bad passes, I think he lost the ball five times, but three of those were him trying to do something positive, defence splitting pass, running with the ball, and cross, it's normal to som lose the possession in those scenarios, the other two were bad give aways, and one wasted a very positive situation for us, but those things happen in games, in other positives he also carried the ball forward very well on a number of occassions, including in the build up to our second goal, and he got some important blocks and tackles

He may well not play rightback for us again this season, but I don't think it will be because Emery thinks he played poorly, it will be because he only played there in the first place because both Cash and Carlos were unavailable, if Carlos was fit, he would have played in central defence with Konsa at rightback, I'm guessing the reason Bogarde played ahead of Kosta is that Emery sees him as closer to a Konsa style rightback than Kosta, and thought that that was the right approach for this game

Room for improvement of course, but I think he can be proud of his debut

He was poor. 

[peterw]

He certainly wasn't poor but it was a poor decision to lunge at the ball for their goal. A wiser old head woould have gone down and got a penalty. He did okay, and tried to carry the ball on multiple occasions. We certainly didn't lose out from Nedelkovic not starting and I think he was a steadier player there than Nedelkovic. I'd probably keep him in v Everton.

[useless]

He didn't lunge at the ball, he tried to make a tackle but the winger beat him with good skill, this happens all the time, people only framing it as him lunging at the ball and making mistake because it lead to a goal, if they hadn't have scored, no one would be looking back at that incident as a mistake by Bogarde, if anything it was more Barkley's fault, he just stood there after Bogarde was beat, made no attempt whatsoever to track back and block the cross, and I think that's who Konsa was looking at with an air of disbelieve after we conceded, not to be critical of Barkley, could have done better in that moment, but these things happen, and he played well when he came on

[Stevo985]

If that performance was a player "doing well" then the rest of the defence were all Maldini

I've got high hopes for the kid, clearly rated, I'm sure he has a big future

But let's not pretend that performance was anything other than poor. Regardless of what Deeney thinks

[Aston_Villan4]

4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

If that performance was a player "doing well" then the rest of the defence were all Maldini

I've got high hopes for the kid, clearly rated, I'm sure he has a big future

But let's not pretend that performance was anything other than poor. Regardless of what Deeney thinks

He does? That’s news to me.

[TRO]

I don't think it was a bad debut at all, sure he tired.....but I have seen first teamers, give the ball away, and fail to cut out crosses.

I am not saying, if selected, its ok to do those things, but I am saying , lets be fair, to a debutante.....when fully blown pro's do it.

[Tomaszk]

If we hadn't won that game, fans would be a lot more frustrated with that performance.

[DJBOB]

Worth nothing that he tied Pau for most progressive carries+passes. 
 
Clear to see why Unai wants to continue developing him. 

[useless]

It wasn't even close to being a poor performance, at worst average, and when you factor in it was his debut and he was playing out of position, it becomes a decent performance with lots of promise, all things considered, he did do well

I can guarantee we will have had players and still do have players, who on occassion will have performed worse, but got nowhere near the same amount of criticism, I bet if Konsa had have played at rightback and played exactly how Bogarde did, there wouldn't be anywhere near the same amount of negative comments

It seems to happen with all academy players in their early games, they get more readily criticized than do new signings who we've paid a lot of money for and who similarly might not look great to begin with, I think it's because with academy players there's a natural worry as to whether they're going to be good enough, and no previous form at top level to ease those worries, so any mistakes they might make become more focused upon that would the same mistake from an already proven player

[Stevo985]

3 minutes ago, useless said:

It wasn't even close to being a poor performance, at worst average, and when you factor in it was his debut and he was playing out of position, it becomes a decent performance with lots of promise, all things considered, he did do well

I can guarantee we will have had players and still do have players, who on occassion will have performed worse, but got nowhere near the same amount of criticism, I bet if Konsa had have played at rightback and played exactly how Bogarde did, there wouldn't be anywhere near the same amount of negative comments

It seems to happen with all academy players in their early games, they get more readily criticized than do new signings who we've paid a lot of money for and who similarly might not look great to begin with, I think it's because with academy players there's a natural worry as to whether they're going to be good enough, and no previous form at top level to ease those worries, so any mistakes they might make become more focused upon that would the same mistake from an already proven player

If Konsa had put in that performance people would rightly be calling for him to not play right back again

[duke313]

7 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

If Konsa had put in that performance people would rightly be calling for him to not play right back again

Konsa has put in bad performances before at CB never mind RB, and nobody was calling for him to never play for the club again.

[handsworthvilla]

1 hour ago, useless said:

He didn't lunge at the ball, he tried to make a tackle but the winger beat him with good skill, this happens all the time, people only framing it as him lunging at the ball and making mistake because it lead to a goal, if they hadn't have scored, no one would be looking back at that incident as a mistake by Bogarde, if anything it was more Barkley's fault, he just stood there after Bogarde was beat, made no attempt whatsoever to track back and block the cross, and I think that's who Konsa was looking at with an air of disbelieve after we conceded, not to be critical of Barkley, could have done better in that moment, but these things happen, and he played well when he came on

Have to disagree on that point. He dangled a leg out which you just shouldn't do in the box. In the box you should really only jockey/block unless you're certain you'll get the ball OR if its last ditch, which this position wasn't. And honestly I noticed it before the goal had even gone in, I thought to myself we've gotta take him off. It's a good job the winger didn't go down because Bogarde would've inevitably got a second booking and been sent off. 

That being said, I don't think it was THAT bad a performance. I'm definitely not writing him off. He struggled a little but lets not forget he was out of position in a tough away game, there is more to come from him. He did make a few impressive carries of the ball when he was under pressure. 

[Xela]

if we had signed Geertruida and he put in the exact same performance on Saturday as Bogarde, what would we be saying?

"Its his first game, he's getting used to his teammates"

"He needs to get up to speed with the Premier League"

"He'll get better when he settles in"

Same leeway should be given to Bogarde. He may know his teammates, but he's never played in a competitive game with them. 

[StewieGriffin]

13 minutes ago, Xela said:

if we had signed Geertruida and he put in the exact same performance on Saturday as Bogarde, what would we be saying?

"Its his first game, he's getting used to his teammates"

"He needs to get up to speed with the Premier League"

"He'll get better when he settles in"

Same leeway should be given to Bogarde. He may know his teammates, but he's never played in a competitive game with them. 

This. Exactly this.

He's 20 years old, playing his first proper game against Premier League opposition (let's not count the farce of an FA Cup tie) - if people are expecting him to step in and immediately be Cafu then there is absolutely no hope for any of our players.

Give him time, he's 20 years old. He's less experienced in top flight football than Nedjelkovic, who we're pretty much all agreed needs minutes to develop. Why isn't Bogarde afforded the same courtesy?

I thought he committed a little easily for the goal, but if that's his only real negative mark then Im not sure we can complain - senior players don't always stand wingers up and give the ball away.

We were all happy with him in pre-season, so why has one game out of position caused backlash? Is it a reflection of frustration at not signing a senior right sided defender? That's not Bogarde's fault - he's been picked to play, he isnt going to turn around and say "nah mate, shouldn't you have just signed Geertruida instead?"

How about we trust Emery? If he sees something then I think he's earnt our patience.

[KentVillan]

For a 20-year-old it was a decent performance. I don’t think we‘d have been happy with it if it was an established pro, but it’s not like he was diabolical. Mostly he played well, positioning was good and touch was good. Got forward well.

I disagree that his involvement in the goal could have happened to anyone … a more experienced, quality full back isn’t attempting the tackle there. The oppo wingers aren’t a mystery these days, you’re all getting video reviews of the player you’re up against and you should know not to commit in that situation.

But it’s a completely forgivable mistake given where he is in his career. Easy thing for Unai to fix.

[vazquez]

True that, but it was nervy poor performance, lets not paint it otherwise. If it was Cash giving that performance he would have been crucified and abused. 

Good: kept the line in defence, mostly good first touch, few nice runs with the ball, some good passes.

Negative: Bullied few times, slow to react / close down opponent,  gave the ball away too often, provided little in defending set pieces, beaten for the goal.

I think opponents will target our right side of defence in the up coming games. It is our weak point until Cash is back or Carlos is again trusted in the central area.

[Aston_Villan4]

3 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

For a 20-year-old it was a decent performance. I don’t think we‘d have been happy with it if it was an established pro, but it’s not like he was diabolical. Mostly he played well, positioning was good and touch was good. Got forward well.

I disagree that his involvement in the goal could have happened to anyone … a more experienced, quality full back isn’t attempting the tackle there. The oppo wingers aren’t a mystery these days, you’re all getting video reviews of the player you’re up against and you should know not to commit in that situation.

But it’s a completely forgivable mistake given where he is in his career. Easy thing for Unai to fix.

He showed it earlier too. I think he was 1 v 1 against vardy on the edge of the box and he did a great job of not biting on any of Vardy’s moves.

[duke313]

1 minute ago, vazquez said:

True that, but it was nervy poor performance, lets not paint it otherwise. If it was Cash giving that performance he would have been crucified and abused. 

Good: kept the line in defence, mostly good first touch, few nice runs with the ball, some good passes.

Negative: Bullied few times, slow to react / close down opponent,  gave the ball away too often, provided little in defending set pieces, beaten for the goal.

I think opponents will target our right side of defence in the up coming games. It is our weak point until Cash is back or Carlos is again trusted in the central area.

Would make sense playing McGinn in front of him in that case.