Transgenderism

[will87]

14 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

which women should we ask? my mrs for example would absolutely respect a trans man to be referred to as she/her/hers and consider her a woman.

a daily mail reading 70 year old would possibly give a different answer

A trans man would be someone who was born female, so you mean a trans woman.

[tomav84]

45 minutes ago, will87 said:

A trans man would be someone who was born female, so you mean a trans woman.

thanks, noted!

[CVByrne]

The debate on this topic is so skewed in the worst way. So much wrong in the extremes of the discussion and all the coverage is always on the extremes. 

For example the argument that women are in danger if a transwoman is allowed use the womens toilets as they may be sexually assaulted / raped. This is an edge case fear mongering. That rapists are going to dress up as women so they can go into womens toilets. There will be the rare news stories to make this seems like it's rife when it isn't. 

While the other end of the spectrum is this ardent extreme view (again assumed loud minority) that gender is a choice and sex isn't an actual thing. Men and Women are gender choices for people born XX or XY chromosomes and there is no difference between them other than their Gender choice. Which of course isn't true based on a mountain of basic science. 

Similarly there is a mountain of evidence that some people suffer from gender dysphoria which is mismatch of their biological sex and their gender identity. These is lots of medical treatment for this from HRT through to surgery. These people can suffer terribly from this condition and should not be victimised they should be helped. Someone who transitions should be called whatever their gender identity is. 

The area in this that worry me is the political side. That we codify gender identity as a personal choice - Scotland's bill a 16yo need simply live as desired gender for 3 months and legally can change their gender - and that it is no longer a medical diagnosis. We're no more in the realm of political views in response to political activism than based in medical science. Similarly on the other end of the spectrum we've terrible laws in the US where transwomen are persecuted and barred from using the toilets of their legal gender. This is persecution plain and simple. 

Like everything in modern political discourse the noisy extremes hog the headlines and narrative and they are driving ever more extreme views. I think the vast majority of people are actually sensible and don't subscribe to the extremes. But proper conversation seem to be drowned out by these extremes and sensationalism.

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Ask a women if a transgender man is actually a women, then you'll get your answer.

Depends what woman you ask.

A compassionate, progressively thinking woman who understands the issue would probably say that person is a woman.

A right wing, daily mail reading, GB news loving gammon woman would not

[maqroll]

3 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Stop confusing sex and gender. They are not the same. 
 

The whole trans debate becomes a lot easier once you make that distinction

Right! It's a mental hurdle I keep stumbling on for some reason. 

[colhint]

I think the flaw in our debate, and I don't know for sure, but I would suspect our debate is 95% males with little input from women.

[Stevo985]

10 minutes ago, maqroll said:

Right! It's a mental hurdle I keep stumbling on for some reason. 

A lot of people do, but I find it helps to placate people who can't get over the "scientific" (their words) approach that you're born as a man or woman and that's that.

They're right, you can't change the biological sex you were born with, but gender is a social construct. That can be changed

[foreveryoung]

2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

A lot of people do, but I find it helps to placate people who can't get over the "scientific" (their words) approach that you're born as a man or woman and that's that.

They're right, you can't change the biological sex you were born with, but gender is a social construct. That can be changed

Gender is a social construct, hmm? I know you claim ro be the oracle on everything diverse, an you can hold your placard up as long as you want, but that's not fact!

[tomav84]

30 minutes ago, colhint said:

I think the flaw in our debate, and I don't know for sure, but I would suspect our debate is 95% males with little input from women.

whilst it's good to talk it out and get everyone's viewpoints on the topic, we definitely are missing the voices that really matter.

it helped a lot when @Eidolon used to post in here...can understand why some of the comments must boil your piss though!

[LondonLax]

I think you need to settle on what everyone means by the word ‘gender’ before you can have a discussion about it. Otherwise people are talking across each other. 

[chrisp65]

7 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I think you need to settle on what everyone means by the word ‘gender’ before you can have a discussion about it. Otherwise people are talking across each other. 

Take your pick:

Wikipedia:

Quote

Gender includes the social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of being a man, woman, or other gender identity.[1][2]Depending on the context, this may include sex-based social structures (i.e. gender roles) and gender expression.[3][4][5] Most cultures use a gender binary, in which gender is divided into two categories, and people are considered part of one or the other (boys/men and girls/women);[6][7][8] those who are outside these groups may fall under the umbrella term non-binary.

World Health Organisation:

Quote

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed.  This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.

Office of National Statistics:

Quote

The UK government defines gender as:

a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth

where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

 

[Risso]

14 hours ago, Eidolon said:

I don’t post here any more largely because of what some of the people who have posted in this thread clearly believe about me and people like me but it’s a bit hard to hold my tongue when a bunch of you are advocating for sentencing largely (not exclusively but largely) non violent offenders literally to lives of carceral rape in male prisons.

You throw a woman, trans or otherwise into a male prison population you are essentially guaranteeing they will be assaulted frequently and studies bare this out. The vast majority of incarcerated trans women are in prison for sex work and non violent drug offences and pose a significantly lower risk to a women’s prison population than they would face in any facility with men. Regardless of what you believe about us or not surely this seems disproportionate to you?

I've only skimmed the thread, but I don't think anybody is suggesting anything like what you've written. Aren't we mostly talking about a violent male multiple rapist who almost certainly has rather hurriedly declared that he's trans to try to get what probably appears to him to be an easier sentence in a women's prison. So two questions then:

1) Do you think this fair on the women staff and prisoners in a women's prison, and

2) Do you think it advances trans rights when a violent male sex offender acts in this way?

I am absolutely for trans people living their lives as they see fit, but in a tiny number of cases, it's not that black and white. In this case, I think the fact that he's a violent sexual attacker means his other 'rights' need to be impinged upon.

[chrisp65]

Just now, Risso said:

I've only skimmed the thread, but I don't think anybody is suggesting anything like what you've written. Aren't we mostly talking about a violent male multiple rapist who almost certainly has rather hurriedly declared that he's trans to try to get what probably appears to him to be an easier sentence in a women's prison. So two questions then:

1) Do you think this fair on the women staff and prisoners in a women's prison, and

2) Do you think it advances trans rights when a violent male sex offender acts in this way?

I am absolutely for trans people living their lives as they see fit, but in a tiny number of cases, it's not that black and white. In this case, I think the fact that he's a violent sexual attacker means his other 'rights' need to be impinged upon.

I’d say there are a couple of points here.

The criminal possibly (probably) did think they could influence what prison they went to. This shows they lacked understanding of the system. Newspapers and tv news picked up on half this story. This shows they also did next to no research. They just saw a sex story and went for it. Journalism and research skipped this story.

Why would you ask a trans person question 2? Do you think it advances men’s rights to equality that some men kill children? Are you ok with men accessing public spaces when its been absolutely proven some men are murderers? How can you defend this?

Now, I don’t actually think you’re a defender of or apologist for murderers. But y’know, it is a fact that some men are murderers so we need to think of that when we let them out on their own. 

 

[Demitri_C]

I feel sorry for the people who are responsible for mking the decisions as if this threads anything to go by its divided opinions and you are not going to please everyone no matter the outcome

[Risso]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I’d say there are a couple of points here.

The criminal possibly (probably) did think they could influence what prison they went to. This shows they lacked understanding of the system. Newspapers and tv news picked up on half this story. This shows they also did next to no research. They just saw a sex story and went for it. Journalism and research skipped this story.

Why would you ask a trans person question 2? Do you think it advances men’s rights to equality that some men kill children? Are you ok with men accessing public spaces when its been absolutely proven some men are murderers? How can you defend this?

Now, I don’t actually think you’re a defender of or apologist for murderers. But y’know, it is a fact that some men are murderers so we need to think of that when we let them out on their own. 

 

By 'acting in this way' I meant calling himself a trans woman in order to obtain a lesser sentence. I was asking the question because I was interested in her views.

[chrisp65]

7 minutes ago, Risso said:

By 'acting in this way' I meant calling himself a trans woman in order to obtain a lesser sentence. I was asking the question because I was interested in her views.

Yes my response looks a bit aggressive reading back. 

For what its worth, I think we can’t possibly know the thought process of this individual That they would commit multiple rapes tells me there’s something not right in the head and they are a danger. Whether the gender change is then genuine, a contrivance, or confused self diagnosis I think it will take more information from that individual than VT is ever going to access.

But Scottish prisons do not allocate prison space based on self identified gender. Whilst the prisoner was being assessed, they were held in solitary in a segregation unit, they might as well have been on the moon for the risk they were to other female prisoners.

[tomav84]

30 minutes ago, Risso said:

I've only skimmed the thread, but I don't think anybody is suggesting anything like what you've written. Aren't we mostly talking about a violent male multiple rapist who almost certainly has rather hurriedly declared that he's trans to try to get what probably appears to him to be an easier sentence in a women's prison. So two questions then:

1) Do you think this fair on the women staff and prisoners in a women's prison, and

2) Do you think it advances trans rights when a violent male sex offender acts in this way?

I am absolutely for trans people living their lives as they see fit, but in a tiny number of cases, it's not that black and white. In this case, I think the fact that he's a violent sexual attacker means his other 'rights' need to be impinged upon.

i think this is quite an assumption. i'm not sure anyone is stupid enough to think that, as a convicted rapist of women, they're going to have an easier time surrounded by women than they would in a vulnerable prison wing of a male prison where they'd presumably be given protection from the more violent men of said prison

[Risso]

38 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

i think this is quite an assumption. i'm not sure anyone is stupid enough to think that, as a convicted rapist of women, they're going to have an easier time surrounded by women than they would in a vulnerable prison wing of a male prison where they'd presumably be given protection from the more violent men of said prison

My mate works in a Category A prison surrounded by some of the most violent criminals and sex offenders it's possible to get. An evening out with him listening to his stories and you'd quickly change your mind on that mate.

[Risso]

52 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Yes my response looks a bit aggressive reading back. 

For what its worth, I think we can’t possibly know the thought process of this individual That they would commit multiple rapes tells me there’s something not right in the head and they are a danger. Whether the gender change is then genuine, a contrivance, or confused self diagnosis I think it will take more information from that individual than VT is ever going to access.

But Scottish prisons do not allocate prison space based on self identified gender. Whilst the prisoner was being assessed, they were held in solitary in a segregation unit, they might as well have been on the moon for the risk they were to other female prisoners.

Yes I read the story and took that from it. But if the Scottish gender recognition bill ever does pass in to law, then surely they would have to be afforded that choice? And if segregation was such a safe option for everybody concerned, why not the segregation unit in a male prison? Are there any other occasions when male rapists have been segregated while awaiting a final prison in a female prison?

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, Risso said:

Yes I read the story and took that from it. But if the Scottish gender recognition bill ever does pass in to law, then surely they would have to be afforded that choice? And if segregation was such a safe option for everybody concerned, why not the segregation unit in a male prison? Are there any other occasions when male rapists have been segregated while awaiting a final prison in a female prison?

On the first bit, from what I’ve gleaned listening to politicians and lawyers on the recognition bill, it absolutely does not change the law on that aspect. The self certification is absolutely not a free pass.

On the second bit about seg, no idea to be honest. My guess, they were being careful to be seen to be ‘being fair’. Put them in solitary in a female prison whilst assessed shows they weren’t pre judging and victimising? Making sure there was no claim possible later? Maybe.