The AVFC FFP thread

[John]

1 hour ago, Made In Aston said:

The deals themselves are not shady at all and are perfectly within the rules. For there to be any sanctions, they would have to prove that the clubs colluded to engineer them artificially. Unless the PL has recordings of the conversations or emails explicitly agreeing to do so, then it's highly unlikely that there would be enough evidence to proceed with charges.

As was the case with Juve, when they were relegated I understand. Fortunately they are unlikely to do that again and no PL club would be stupid enough to agree to inflate deals specifically to get around PSR over the phone. For some reason, the PL seem to want to make an issue of this, in order to defend a protectionist system that favours the teams that wanted to quit their league. Far easier to pick on those clubs than Manchester City, I guess. 

14 hours ago, MapleVilla said:

Plot twist. We only needed to sell Tim and Omari to be in good PSR standing. Luiz was a smoke screen

Yes, the perfect scenario.  

[thabucks]

Fully believe we expected they’d be backlash to these deals and could use any ensuing response from the premier league as way to launch counter legal action against them as threatened by Nas against the restrictive nature of PSR. Football is a sport not an accountancy excercise and should be played on the pitch and not balance sheets. 

[cheltenham_villa]

1 hour ago, mattyvilla said:

No chance anyone can do anything about the player sales , a player is worth what someone else will pay ,an independant valuation of players would be the only way to prevent it and that won't happen

i dont think this is true. Weve already seen the premier league take a view on commercial deals they believe to be inflated, asset sales (stadium etc) if they believe them to be inflated and even a view on how clubs are allocating debt in the balance sheet. Id fully expect the PL or the independent PSR auditor to take a view on whether they think player valuations are inflated.

We may not like it, but they are literally doing it with everything else so why would this be different.

[MrBlack]

19 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

i dont think this is true. Weve already seen the premier league take a view on commercial deals they believe to be inflated, asset sales (stadium etc) if they believe them to be inflated and even a view on how clubs are allocating debt in the balance sheet. Id fully expect the PL or the independent PSR auditor to take a view on whether they think player valuations are inflated.

We may not like it, but they are literally doing it with everything else so why would this be different.

But why would they see them as inflated? They're exactly in line with tens of other transfers involving youth prospects over recent years. If they want to scrutinise our transfers, they need to be going back years and looking at Chelsea and Man City's sales as well.

The facts seem to be that the PL are keeping an eye on the tranfsers (as they do for EVERY single player purchase/sale as they have to receive the deal sheet), and that's it.  The media are making shit up to generate clicks. 

They've been fed a line by United, Liverpool or Arsenal, and it's triggered the landslide of stories that are all actual bollocks. It's only because England are so boring in the Euros that it's even got any attention.

They won't have any issues with our valuations. They won't have issues with the trade aspect either. Player trades have happened for decades. Not very regularly, but they do happen. And they can only happen if you agree them with the other party. Again, not sure what issue they can possibly have with that. 

They might see this as highlighting one of the many issues with FFP/PSR, but if they change it it won't apply retrospectively.

It's a whole shitstorm of nothingness. Bizarre people even give it the time of day. As if £9m for Iroegbunum is inflated .

[sharkyvilla]

Just now, MrBlack said:

But why would they see them as inflated? They're exactly in line with tens of other transfers involving youth prospects over recent years. If they want to scrutinise our transfers, they need to be going back years and looking at Chelsea and Man City's sales as well.

The facts seem to be that the PL are keeping an eye on the tranfsers (as they do for EVERY single player purchase/sale as they have to receive the deal sheet), and that's it.  The media are making shit up to generate clicks. 

They've been fed a line by United, Liverpool or Arsenal, and it's triggered the landslide of stories that are all actual bollocks. It's only because England are so boring in the Euros that it's even got any attention.

They won't have any issues with our valuations. They won't have issues with the trade aspect either. Player trades have happened for decades. Not very regularly, but they do happen. And they can only happen if you agree them with the other party. Again, not sure what issue they can possibly have with that. 

They might see this as highlighting one of the many issues with FFP/PSR, but if they change it it won't apply retrospectively.

It's a whole shitstorm of nothingness. Bizarre people even give it the time of day. As if £9m for Iroegbunum is inflated .

People have been using the Transfermarkt values when as well deciding what's inflated or not.  Kellyman was down as £1m on there when he is clearly worth a lot more than that as highly rated local youngster.  I don't know how they judge values but I suspect nobody on that site got round to actually judging it properly as there isn't enough time in the world for a few geeks to look at every single player.  If you look at Football Manager Inside, his sell value is €60m, which I assume is what he is expected to make in the future by FM which is pretty much the most detailed scouting network in the world.

[MrBlack]

1 minute ago, sharkyvilla said:

People have been using the Transfermarkt values when as well deciding what's inflated or not.  Kellyman was down as £1m on there when he is clearly worth a lot more than that as highly rated local youngster.  I don't know how they judge values but I suspect nobody on that site got round to actually judging it properly as there isn't enough time in the world for a few geeks to look at every single player.  If you look at Football Manager Inside, his sell value is €60m, which I assume is what he is expected to make in the future by FM which is pretty much the most detailed scouting network in the world.

Out of reaction but thanks. It's just obvious that we've not inflated anything.

[cheltenham_villa]

9 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

But why would they see them as inflated? They're exactly in line with tens of other transfers involving youth prospects over recent years. If they want to scrutinise our transfers, they need to be going back years and looking at Chelsea and Man City's sales as well.

The facts seem to be that the PL are keeping an eye on the tranfsers (as they do for EVERY single player purchase/sale as they have to receive the deal sheet), and that's it.  The media are making shit up to generate clicks. 

They've been fed a line by United, Liverpool or Arsenal, and it's triggered the landslide of stories that are all actual bollocks. It's only because England are so boring in the Euros that it's even got any attention.

They won't have any issues with our valuations. They won't have issues with the trade aspect either. Player trades have happened for decades. Not very regularly, but they do happen. And they can only happen if you agree them with the other party. Again, not sure what issue they can possibly have with that. 

They might see this as highlighting one of the many issues with FFP/PSR, but if they change it it won't apply retrospectively.

It's a whole shitstorm of nothingness. Bizarre people even give it the time of day. As if £9m for Iroegbunum is inflated .

im not saying they will find them to be inflated. Im just saying that they definitely have the power to make that assessment. The OP seemed to be of the view that no one could do anything even if they wanted to.

As Villa fans we seem to have two views. 1. these transfers are not inflated. 2. Look how clever we are at exposing a PSR loop hole.

If the deals are not inflated, why are we all celebrating some loop hole. 

 

[VillaChris]

2 hours ago, mattyvilla said:

No chance anyone can do anything about the player sales , a player is worth what someone else will pay ,an independant valuation of players would be the only way to prevent it and that won't happen

You get that with tribunals when an under 22 goes on a free.

There's no way an independent tribunal would've valued Kellyman at 20m if he'd left us on a free and joined Chelsea.

Tim at 10m, that's not an issue as he has started prem games for us and been regular in England youth squads.

[VillaChris]

BTW it's amusing people are saying these deals aren't inflated....and at same time want to sell Cash for 15m.

This is a guy who's been a regular in some very good seasons and was a starting player in knock out match at World Cup.

[Teale's 'tache]

19 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

im not saying they will find them to be inflated. Im just saying that they definitely have the power to make that assessment. The OP seemed to be of the view that no one could do anything even if they wanted to.

As Villa fans we seem to have two views. 1. these transfers are not inflated. 2. Look how clever we are at exposing a PSR loop hole.

If the deals are not inflated, why are we all celebrating some loop hole. 

 

There is no loophole, and nothing has been inflated either, in my opinion.

The issue seems to be that we have sold/bought from other clubs in a tricky PSR situation, but for me, that's just the logical conclusion to the rules as they are now, if we tried to sell to anyone else, they know about our issues and will bleed us for every penny, we won't get a fair deal, just look at the Luiz transfer, Juve have been in the driving seat of those negotiations because they know our situation, but if we deal with clubs in a similar situation to ourselves we'll get a deal more favourable, so, of course, we'll end up dealing with them and vice versa. I don't think it's clever particularly, just the naturally logical thing to do at this time.

The problem seems to be that some media/rival fans wanted us to fall foul of the rules, and they aren't happy we've managed to dodge punishment, for now at least anyway.

It is a bit of a giant nothing burger, every suggestion I've seen to change the rules to avoid this situation just makes it seem like the league wants teams to fall foul of PSR, which surely is not the point of the rules.

[thunderball]

The "overinflated" argument is absolutely groundless, a total non-starter, there is plenty of precedent to uphold the valuations without trying very hard:

 

Carney Chuckwaemeka 18y.o., England U21, Academy star, only one year left on his contract, very limited first team experience - £20m to Chelsea. Unilateral deal, no reciprocal trade

Aaron Ramsey 20y.o., England U21, very limited first team experience (did he ever play for Villa?), decent Championship loan to Norwich - £14m to Burnley

Cameron Archer 21y.o., England U21, very limited first team experience, good Championship loans Preston/Middlesborough - £18.5m to Sheffield Utd

Rhian Brewster 20y.o., England U21, very limited first tem experience - £23m to Sheffield Utd

 

I can see absolutely no issue with Kellyman when compared to Carney, and Iroegbunam compared to Ramsey, if anything they are of lower values?

The bed wetters are only getting excited about the reciprocal nature of our trades for which there is no rule against, wrongly assuming there is something under hand. As mentione by John Townley, the Juventus deal (which undervalued Luiz) cleared the PSR in one go, so the other deals were not out of necessity.

[MrBlack]

28 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

You get that with tribunals when an under 22 goes on a free.

There's no way an independent tribunal would've valued Kellyman at 20m if he'd left us on a free and joined Chelsea.

Tim at 10m, that's not an issue as he has started prem games for us and been regular in England youth squads.

Those tribunals are infamous for undervaluing players. You wouldn't use them as a reference point. You'd use what fees clubs have paid on the open market over the last couple of years. And all of those fees are commensurate with what we charged for Tim Iro and Kellyman.

[CarryOnVilla]

36 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

im not saying they will find them to be inflated. Im just saying that they definitely have the power to make that assessment. The OP seemed to be of the view that no one could do anything even if they wanted to.

As Villa fans we seem to have two views. 1. these transfers are not inflated. 2. Look how clever we are at exposing a PSR loop hole.

If the deals are not inflated, why are we all celebrating some loop hole. 

 

No one particularly is celebrating a new loophole, because there isn’t one, really as @Teale's 'tache explains 

as of “inflated prices” and people celebrating them. It’s just a good deal… for a rare change. And that’s been the real benefit with doing business with other PSR clubs. We all essentially agreed to not try and screw each other over and swap deal ensures that. All the PSR clubs are all playing honourably with each other, making deals quick, at a fair price and respecting the potential of players. The only loophole that’s being exploited is amortisation, what every club in the world is already exploiting. 

There’s actually nothing new going on, from a technical standpoint.  Just a bunch of clubs actually helping each other and not shafting each other for a change.

that’s the clever bit I’m celebrating. Gentlemanly behaviour between clubs. Helping each other out of a tricky situation, and doing it with already established methods.

[VillaChris]

27 minutes ago, thunderball said:

The "overinflated" argument is absolutely groundless, a total non-starter, there is plenty of precedent to uphold the valuations without trying very hard:

 

Carney Chuckwaemeka 18y.o., England U21, Academy star, only one year left on his contract, very limited first team experience - £20m to Chelsea. Unilateral deal, no reciprocal trade

Aaron Ramsey 20y.o., England U21, very limited first team experience (did he ever play for Villa?), decent Championship loan to Norwich - £14m to Burnley

Cameron Archer 21y.o., England U21, very limited first team experience, good Championship loans Preston/Middlesborough - £18.5m to Sheffield Utd

Rhian Brewster 20y.o., England U21, very limited first tem experience - £23m to Sheffield Utd

 

I can see absolutely no issue with Kellyman when compared to Carney, and Iroegbunam compared to Ramsey, if anything they are of lower values?

The bed wetters are only getting excited about the reciprocal nature of our trades for which there is no rule against, wrongly assuming there is something under hand. As mentione by John Townley, the Juventus deal (which undervalued Luiz) cleared the PSR in one go, so the other deals were not out of necessity.

Brewster scored 11 in 20 at championship level for Swansea before he moved to Sheffield United so similar goal ratio to Ollie who moved to us for a similar fee that summer.

Edited Wednesday at 10:10 by VillaChris

[thunderball]

1 minute ago, VillaChris said:

Brewster scored 11 in 20 at championship level for Swansea before he moved to Sheffield United.

Very similar to Archer really?

Again, underlines the market valuations and shows the subjective nature of this - surprisingly little demand for Philogene-Bidace and he only goes for £5m, when for me, he was the real star of that Academy group.

[duke313]

6 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Brewster scored 11 in 20 at championship level for Swansea before he moved to Sheffield United so similar goal ratio to Ollie who moved to us for a similar fee that summer.

Watkins scored 49 in 153 appearances for Brentford, that's why we paid what we did for him.

[MrBlack]

6 minutes ago, thunderball said:

Very similar to Archer really?

Again, underlines the market valuations and shows the subjective nature of this - surprisingly little demand for Philogene-Bidace and he only goes for £5m, when for me, he was the real star of that Academy group.

Think that was low due to the buy back options we added in. I can only imagine we have a chunky sell on percentage with Philogene as well.

Without these, he'd have gone for 15-20m I reckon. 

[bannedfromHandV]

Good luck with defining any transfers as ‘over inflated’, the genie was let out of the bottle years ago.

Harry Maguire £80M, what 4 years ago or longer? Kepa was what, £70M, total flop, the list goes on. Can’t see how anyone in any official capacity could ask serious questions when crazy transfer fees have been around for decades now (ever increasing).

[VillaChris]

11 minutes ago, thunderball said:

Very similar to Archer really?

Again, underlines the market valuations and shows the subjective nature of this - surprisingly little demand for Philogene-Bidace and he only goes for £5m, when for me, he was the real star of that Academy group.

Ultimately if you hit double figures in championship in half a season and you're also a regular in the under 21 set up you're a 15-20m player easily by today's valuations.

Kellyman's played a couple of senior games in his career for us and England under 20s. Of course age is a bit part of that but even when Walcott and Bale moved for big fees in the mid 2000s they were regulars at championship level and massively stood out.

For the record I don't see any issue with the fees for Tim and Maatsen but even by today's stands Kellyman and Dobbin do feel a bit inflated. However we're hardly the first club to do this.

[VillaChris]

10 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Watkins scored 49 in 153 appearances for Brentford, that's why we paid what we did for him.

That's the point though. Brewster and Watkins both moving that summer is more comparable than saying Brewster cost 20m + so Kellyman must be close to that bracket.