blandy Posted June 24 Moderator Share Posted June 24 Chat about PSR/FFP rules in the General FFP thread please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 4 minutes ago, david-avfc said: None of the parties are related, why should the league dictate who or what each club spends its amortisation budget on? Player swaps have been around forever, it’s not for the league to say who you can or can’t buy and they can’t say well he’s allegedly only a “reserve” player so you can’t buy or sell him. This is true, but what this situation is doing is allow clubs like us to get around PSR, within the current rules. I'm also certain the sky 6 will not want to let the likes of us or Newcastle get near them. I think they would be lobbying for some change to keep us out. As for player swaps, he's they have been around but there aren't that many straight swaps that I can remember. I think there are far more player plus cash deals. At the moment in the kellyman Maatsen deal. We get £19m on our books and only £7m off the books this year. I'm sure the sky six would look at our trading and think, that's clever we ain't having that. How about only the difference in trades to to PSR. So in that instance it suits the sky 6 in that scenario we would miss out the £19m but only have £3m off the books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 2 hours ago, Herman22 said: One thing I like about Monchi is that he seems to develop good relationships with other clubs so that deals like the Doug to Juve or the Everton and Chelsea back and forth are possible. I don't think you can overestimate the importance of having Unai, Monchi and (the oft forgotten man) Vidagany at our club. All three appear to be almost universally respected and liked by journalists, agents, their opposite numbers at other clubs. I don't think any club has ever felt "shafted" by any of them and so doors always remain open. This puts us in a great position - if people think that we're looking for a win / win then negotiations will be easier. We're not trying to stitch anyone up with any of the deals we seem to have struck. They all seem reasonable - whatever some outsiders might think. I don't think we've been "had" (although it seems that others do) either. Everything looks pretty fair and that's a great place to be. I always find it funny how some people are determined to push and push to try and get a discount or try and add a bit on top of their asking price. It seems weird to me. Basically if you know the guy on the other end of the phone is going to haggle then your starting price goes up. He haggles hard. Your reluctantly make a counteroffer, he'll haggle again and you'll get to your "best price". Depending on how big a c0ck the other person is maybe he'll push once more. The thing is he'll have this massive hard on because he's haggled you down - it doesn't seem to matter a toss to him that if he'd just made a fair offer to start with then the price you finally agreed might well have been lower than what he'd driven you down to. I am sure that every club adds a good chunk when Levy calls because you know for a fact that he's going to start 50% below the right price. I feel that Doug often fell into the same boat. There comes a time where haggling over £250,000 on a transfer just isn't worth the time or the effort. I get the feeling that we will get to a "fair price" much quicker with the team we have - for both ins and outs. The more times you do that - the more times someone is going to either call you or pick up the phone when you call them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 None of the transfer fees we've been involved with have been inflated, Kellyman slightly perhaps, but not by much, not something that needs investigating, that's the going rate for the best players in his age group, can guarantee if PSR wasn't a thing he would still be going for a similar amount if sold, if Kadan Young signs a new deal he will be worth a similar amount, and Jamal-Jimoh if he signs a contract extension when he turns eighteen, these values are overpriced in of themselves, but it's not a PSR thing, it's because clubs are willing to take the risk of paying inflated fees for these kind of players because if they live up to their promise they will be worth much more The season before last Iroegbunam was just as good as Archer, Philogene, and Ramsey in the Championship, he hasn't turned into a bad player because of a season where he had injury issues and struggled to get into a team as a twenty year old that was fighting for top four, he's also a regular for England through the various age groups, which also adds value, £10m is in no way inflated for him, I was expecting slightly less, but only because I thought we would have insisted on a buyback, all Everton have to do is loan him to the Championship and a good season later - which we know he's capable of - and he's already worth more than they paid for him The only reported fee I think is questionable is the £10m for Lewis Dobbin, but I suspect that one has being misreported, journalists getting caught up in the whole swap thing, and presuming because they paid £10m for Iroegbunam then we paid £10m fro Dobbin, but I doubt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyDirk Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 1 hour ago, Deano & Dalian's Umbrella said: I think this video neatly summarises what we decided to do regarding the PSR rules after our proposal to increase the allowable losses in line with inflation was voted down (contains bad language). Find a stranger in the alps? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheltenham_villa Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 I dont understand the denial in this thread, we all know what were doing and no one in their right mind thought kellyman was worth 19m. I suspect the league will at some point come up with some sort of classification around expected fees in the same way they police commercial deals and the same way they brough in an amortisation cap. Until then, lets just exploit and laugh about it. Finally were acting like a big 6 club rather than just saying its not fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talldarkandransome Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 So, forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but, we need to make some dosh before 30th June yes, then after that we can spend like mad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted June 24 Moderator Share Posted June 24 40 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said: From a villa perspective, i love to see us doing all we can, but lets not pretend that the rule makers cant just decide they dont like this and then do something about it. They can already do this though and have done in Italy - the key is they'd have to prove that the valuations were artificially inflated, in the case of our summer business so far, I think you'd struggle to do that in a courtroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSvillain Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 22 minutes ago, Talldarkandransome said: So, forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but, we need to make some dosh before 30th June yes, then after that we can spend like mad? Not really no, once we enter July the Grealish sale will roll off the 3 year period so we will still have to be prudent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkiller1981 Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 2 hours ago, cheltenham_villa said: I dont understand the denial in this thread, we all know what were doing and no one in their right mind thought kellyman was worth 19m. I’m not disagreeing with you about Kellymans value however Chelsea have just shelled out far more than that for a 17 year old Brazilian I believe who has no experience of English football and limited knowledge of professional football at all so comparing value with players is next to impossible. I would say Kellyman on paper would be worth more but I haven’t really seen either of them play but because Kellyman is coming from Villa vs a lad signing from Brazil the seems to to few questions asked about one transfer and lots about the other and I get it because of our mutual situations but my point is around value not the situation 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 49 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said: From a villa perspective, i love to see us doing all we can, but lets not pretend that the rule makers cant just decide they dont like this and then do something about it. Our players are being sold at fair value though. We are buying and selling players at fair value, just like almost every other club. This difference being we are doing a few between the same clubs. We aren’t selling Tim for £60m and buying Dobbin for £60m, it’s just about £10m after add ons. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 2 hours ago, cheltenham_villa said: I dont understand the denial in this thread, we all know what were doing and no one in their right mind thought kellyman was worth 19m. Cole Palmer 370 league mins in 22/23 for City, sold for £40m + 2.5m add ons Fabio Silva 12 Porto Games before Wolves brought him for £35m. Our own Carney was £20m Lewis Hall - 9 appearances - £28m plus £7m adds ons the list goes on for a lot of clubs, it’s not out of line with others Edited June 24 by nick76 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaVilla Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Talldarkandransome said: So, forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but, we need to make some dosh before 30th June yes, then after that we can spend like mad? without understanding the ins and outs, i would say we arent in trouble now, but also arent flush. after Luiz, Kellyman and Timmy (which has made us comfortable but not flush), if we can also sell Duran, Cash, Dendoncker, Archer, Bogarde, Chambers and one of Moreno/Digne, that might bring in around 80-100m depending on prices, that would allow us to spend big again, probably. then add any other sales we want to make, to give us even more headroom. Edited June 24 by MaVilla 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Messy Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 In any deal, if both parties feel that they have been fleeced, then the price was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 24 Moderator Share Posted June 24 More posts moved. Final request: If you want to discuss FFP/PSR rules, principles, how it impacts other clubs, or all clubs, or player values etc. please use the General FFP thread. This one is for Villa specific aspects around PSR/FFP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 12 hours ago, duke313 said: You don't honestly believe that do you? There is nothing anyone can say that can convince me this transfer is anything other than a PSR reach around between the two clubs. He might turn out to be a useful player, but there is 0% chance we'd be signing him if we were;t repaying the favour to Everton for signing Tim. I mean this is my feeling as well, but playing devil's advocate for a moment, presumably we managed to persuade Dobbin himself that he was more than just an accounting manouevre, otherwise why did he agree to come? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 (edited) 9 hours ago, Talldarkandransome said: So, forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but, we need to make some dosh before 30th June yes, then after that we can spend like mad? I think the post 1st of July spending policy we’ll adapt in the transfer market can be summarised with one word: Banzai!! If we have to make sales again next June to balance out any shortfalls in revenue and ensure PSR compliance then that’s what I’d expect us to do. Hence buying bucket loads of young talented players for modest fees who can appreciate in value significantly over the season. Now we’ve actually made it the Champions League I get the feeling Sawiris and Edens will want to flex by making another significant investment in the playing staff. Who knows. They may even aim to get PSR in its current form struck down as anti-competitive via the UK courts. What they’re not going to accept is a two-tier competition that disadvantages their club/investment/business plan, at the exact point that Villa achieve Champions League qualification, again. Edited June 25 by Awol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 1 hour ago, Awol said: I think the post 1st of July spending policy we’ll adapt in the transfer market can be summarised with one word: Banzai!! If we have to make sales again next June to balance out any shortfalls in revenue and ensure PSR compliance then that’s what I’d expect us to do. Hence buying bucket loads of young talented players for modest fees who can appreciate in value significantly over the season. Now we’ve actually made it the Champions League I get the feeling Sawiris and Edens will want to flex by making another significant investment in the playing staff. Who knows. They may even aim to get PSR in its current form struck down as anti-competitive via the UK courts. What they’re not going to accept is a two-tier competition that disadvantages their club/investment/business plan, at the exact point that Villa achieve Champions League qualification, again. Don’t forget UEFA have their own version of FFP and their version is actually more restrictive than the Premier League’s. Our spending will be significantly limited by our revenue after July as well, if we want to stay in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan-scott Posted June 25 VT Supporter Share Posted June 25 Sounds about right… 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post nick76 Posted June 25 Popular Post Share Posted June 25 17 hours ago, cheltenham_villa said: I dont understand the denial in this thread, we all know what were doing and no one in their right mind thought kellyman was worth 19m. I suspect the league will at some point come up with some sort of classification around expected fees in the same way they police commercial deals and the same way they brough in an amortisation cap. Until then, lets just exploit and laugh about it. Finally were acting like a big 6 club rather than just saying its not fair. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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