_AA_786 Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 13 hours ago, Adam2003 said: Oh I am absolutely convinced that player for player, Philogene and Onana is a downgrade on Diaby and Douglas Luiz. People are fooling themselves if they don’t think that. But the players we brought in as part of the DL deal and the ~£40m profit that can be reinvested are part of building a wider/deeper squad and the players coming in have a lot of potential upside long term. Definitely though I don’t think those are the moves we would make if money was no object - but it is. Agree completely that this is the club knowingly getting weaker due the the critical need to balance the books. Also the strategy to spread resources to other parts so we have a stronger squad overall, if we don't quite have the same number of star players. However those arguing that JPB today is better than DIaby is nonsensical to me but then I'm in the no Felix camp so it's all swings and roundabouts. To his credit, JPB played OK against Columbus Crew but understandably looked like a young player getting a big opportunity in the first team (playing it safe to not make a mistake). With more games and confidence I'm sure he'll come good and be a good contributor to the squad but lets not pretend Diaby under delivered. He was a good buy for us who got great numbers for a 1st season in the Prem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuwabatake Sanjuro Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 Just now, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said: Ideally Rodgers will be a 10 mostly this season (Felix depending mostly), that would leave Ramsey first choice on the left with Philogene as back up. On the right Bailey should be first choice with Philogene as back up also. When McGinn or Tielemans play more advanced too will be an extra complication. So many options. Last season we were running players into the ground or having no option but playing Cash right wing. That won't happen. This season but keeping everyone happy with playing time will be difficult. I forgot Buendia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillanousOne Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 (edited) Onana is not a downgrade on Luiz, they are different players (IMO). I would argue we needed a player of Onana's profile more than we needed to keep Luiz, but the shine on that is taken off without Kamara fit. Philogene is not a like for like Diaby replacement - but he might play off Watkins at times, Unai doesn't ever seem to play with two out and out wingers, preferring wing backs presume that is why he signed Maatsen. Edited July 29 by VillanousOne 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 4 minutes ago, VillanousOne said: Onana is not a downgrade on Luiz, they are different players. I would argue we needed a player of Onana's profile more than we needed to keep Luiz, but the shine on that is taken off without Kamara fit. I think luiz is going to be a huge miss in our midfield. He rarely missed games, scored goals , assisted and great at set pieces. Cant see who else in our cm players has that. Some might say youri, but he does get injured alot and is inconsistent. Onana is a different player i agree ans its another position i think we are going to struggle in 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 (edited) 2 hours ago, Stevo985 said: People still don’t understand what release clauses are. They’re not valuations of a player. A £100m release clause doesn’t mean that’s what we value him at, just as Vinicius Jr isn’t valued at a billion quid The Spanish example is not really relevant as there is a requirement in LaLiga that all players have a release clause of some amount. There is no such requirement in the Premier League, which raises the question of why we have added one here then? Presumably it has come from the players side as the club would not want anything that removes their ability to negotiate a sale like a release clause does. So they will have agreed to include a release clause in the contract at the players request. Then there is the matter of how high to set it. The player will want as low as possible to give them more freedom and the club will want it as high as possible to ensure they still have a reasonable negotiating position should a rival club make an approach. It seems £100m was what the player and the club have agreed is an amount both sides are willing to accept, which implies Philogene’s camp consider that he will potentially become a £100m player at some point during the contract term and will have the freedom to move and sign for big money elsewhere. I guess they have a lot of faith in their boy. So you could say that £100m is indeed not what we rate him at but instead what Philogene rates himself at Edited July 29 by LondonLax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 29 VT Supporter Share Posted July 29 Just now, LondonLax said: The Spanish example is not really relevant as there is a requirement in LaLiga that all players have a release clause of some amount. Exactly Just now, LondonLax said: There is no such requirement in the Premier League, which raises the question of why we have added one here then? Presumably it has come from the players side as the club would not want anything that removes their ability to negotiate a sale like a release clause does. So they will have agreed to include a release clause in the contract at the players request. Then there is the matter of how high to set it. The player will want as low as possible to give them more freedom and the club will want it as high as possible to ensure they still have a reasonable negotiating position should a rival club make an approach. It seems £100m was what the player and the club have agreed is an amount both sides are willing to accept, which implies Philogene’s camp consider that he will potentially become a £100m player at some point during the contract term and will have the freedom to move and sign for big money elsewhere. I guess they have a lot of faith in their boy Exactly right. It would have come from the player's side that they want a release clause in the contract. The ideal situation for the club is always no release clause. But people still seem to think it's a GOOD thing for a club to have a release clause on a player. It isn't. The 100m would have been a negotiated figure from both sides. The player's side would almost certainly have wanted less, we would have wanted more (or, again, ideally none at all) Even the bit in bold may not be true. They might have wanted a 50m release clause but 100m is the compromise. But yeah it's in there as a fail safe that if Philogene becomes a superstar then they have a way out of the contract What it isn't is a valuation of the player, or even his potential. It's just a "just in case". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiney Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 17 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: I think luiz is going to be a huge miss in our midfield. He rarely missed games, scored goals , assisted and great at set pieces. Cant see who else in our cm players has that. Some might say youri, but he does get injured alot and is inconsistent. Onana is a different player i agree ans its another position i think we are going to struggle in Agreed with this on Luiz, especially his durability. Him and Watkins were ever presents with huge a huge amount of goal and assists between them. Taking either of them out the team leaves a big hole to be filled. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Exactly Exactly right. It would have come from the player's side that they want a release clause in the contract. The ideal situation for the club is always no release clause. But people still seem to think it's a GOOD thing for a club to have a release clause on a player. It isn't. The 100m would have been a negotiated figure from both sides. The player's side would almost certainly have wanted less, we would have wanted more (or, again, ideally none at all) Even the bit in bold may not be true. They might have wanted a 50m release clause but 100m is the compromise. But yeah it's in there as a fail safe that if Philogene becomes a superstar then they have a way out of the contract What it isn't is a valuation of the player, or even his potential. It's just a "just in case". The bit in bold comes true because if the players camp has no faith that their player will become a £100m player during the life of the contract than the release clause is of no use to them. They would have stuck to their guns to agree a valuation that could realistically be of use to them in the future when trying to engineer a move away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 29 VT Supporter Share Posted July 29 4 minutes ago, LondonLax said: The bit in bold comes true because if the players camp has no faith that their player will become a £100m player during the life of the contract than the release clause is of no use to them. They would have stuck to their guns to agree a valuation that could realistically be of use to them in the future when trying to engineer a move away. I'd say the difference in our opinions is I think it's the valuation of a possibility, not of the player's potential. It doesn't necessarily mean they think he WILL become that player. More that they think it's a possibility and it's protection against him being the next Messi but not being able to get a move. I think that's the key difference for the people who think the release clause is some sort of valuation. Release clauses are, by their very nature, USUALLY far more than the player is or will be worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: I'd say the difference in our opinions is I think it's the valuation of a possibility, not of the player's potential. It doesn't necessarily mean they think he WILL become that player. More that they think it's a possibility and it's protection against him being the next Messi but not being able to get a move. I think that's the key difference for the people who think the release clause is some sort of valuation. Release clauses are, by their very nature, USUALLY far more than the player is or will be worth Anything is possible of course. It would seem that the club do not think it is very likely that he will be worth more than £100m (and presumably most would agree). Yet the players camp think there is a realistic chance of that happening, to the point that they have insisted on a release clause being inserted and are still happy to sign off on it even when it has been set at £100m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 15 minutes ago, Hiney said: Agreed with this on Luiz, especially his durability. Him and Watkins were ever presents with huge a huge amount of goal and assists between them. Taking either of them out the team leaves a big hole to be filled. I must admit i am abut concerned about that area of the pitch. We have done well making us more solid robust and defensively sound but i think alot is going to be relied on youri now (no idea how long if ever buendia will get back to what he was) youri needs to stay fit thats for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillanousOne Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: I think luiz is going to be a huge miss in our midfield. He rarely missed games, scored goals , assisted and great at set pieces. Cant see who else in our cm players has that. Some might say youri, but he does get injured alot and is inconsistent. Onana is a different player i agree ans its another position i think we are going to struggle in I think we needed Luiz and Onana, we have been saying for years we don't have a traditional out and out defensive midfielder, Kamara has often done a great job but I think he is actually closer to Luiz than Onana. You need someone who can do the dirty work so players like Luiz, Youri, Barkley can do their thing. But this is the Jaden thread so we should focus on him. I don't think he, Dobbin or Illing are going to replace Diaby - not straight away. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 29 VT Supporter Share Posted July 29 2 hours ago, LondonLax said: Anything is possible of course. It would seem that the club do not think it is very likely that he will be worth more than £100m (and presumably most would agree). Yet the players camp think there is a realistic chance of that happening, to the point that they have insisted on a release clause being inserted and are still happy to sign off on it even when it has been set at £100m. It depends what you class as realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWARLEY2 Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 A very talented player , who if he is a direct replacement for Diaby will offer far far more defensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-Reacho Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 3 hours ago, Demitri_C said: I think luiz is going to be a huge miss in our midfield. He rarely missed games, scored goals , assisted and great at set pieces. Cant see who else in our cm players has that. Some might say youri, but he does get injured alot and is inconsistent. Onana is a different player i agree ans its another position i think we are going to struggle in Luiz's passing in the final third is what we haven't replaced with Onana. Maybe Ramsay can revert back to that more central position and provide that incisive passing we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 2 hours ago, VillanousOne said: I think we needed Luiz and Onana, we have been saying for years we don't have a traditional out and out defensive midfielder, Kamara has often done a great job but I think he is actually closer to Luiz than Onana. You need someone who can do the dirty work so players like Luiz, Youri, Barkley can do their thing. But this is the Jaden thread so we should focus on him. I don't think he, Dobbin or Illing are going to replace Diaby - not straight away. A midfield duo of onana and luiz wpuld ahve been filth. Disappointing we wont ever see that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 Was hoping for more than he's shown us so far. He looked a bit better when he stopped trying to take on his man and losing the ball but if he can't beat a defender at this level after repeated attempts, it doesn't bode well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 He hardly had a chance to get on the ball last night for obvious reasons, when he did he did okay, but it was never in the final third where he could do any damage, the previous game I thought the somewhat negative judgement was harsh, he linked up well with the players around him and got in a few crosses and shots, they were just well blocked by the opposiion, in both games he came on in difficult circumstances, 3-1 down and down to ten men. My worry was that he was being somewhat unfairly overhyped, with some of the talk of him surprising people, despite the fact most rate him, so to be a surprise he would have to have an unbelieveable season, people reading too much into £100m release clause, talk of him being far better than Rogers in the Championship - he wasn't but, but even if he was that doesn't automatically mean he's going to take to the prem as quickley as Rogers did, Eze and Olise comparisons, talk of him being Diaby's direct replacemen and so on All that might come true, pre-season doesn't really tell us much one way or the other, but for the money we paid, if he becomes simply a competent squad player, which I'm pretty confident he can become with time, then he will have been a very good signing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 The premier league and even more so the champions league are such a step up in class from championship. I do worry he might struggle Hopefully he can adapt like morgan has 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 I think there has been a lot of overhype about him going on his performances for Hull. This is a whole new ball game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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