Ollie Watkins

[Sam-AVFC]

Does anyone think he has improved as a player since joining?

He's still a good player, but I must admit I expected him to kick on a bit more. Maybe improve the areas he isn't so strong in, like his decision making.

[Rightdm00]

11 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Does anyone think he has improved as a player since joining?

He's still a good player, but I must admit I expected him to kick on a bit more. Maybe improve the areas he isn't so strong in, like his decision making.

It's obvious Grealish papered over many cracks within our team.  It's no mistake we look a shadow of ourselves in attack when compared to last season. 

Watkins never created much on his own and the PL best creator last year is currently riding the bench for City. Don't think it's much deeper than that. 

[ejs1111]

i really wonder if that early season injury has taken some of his burst or pace this season...and that is why he looks like a 'shadow' of himself? 

Honestly I never thought Watkins had very quick feet, but he was always a powerful runner who could run for days and outpace players when he got up to speed.  This season he does look even slower however.

[briny_ear]

4 hours ago, useless said:

An example of this is the games where both he and Ings have played, Watkins has by far the better game, but because he gets makes a few mistakes, he gets far more criticism than Ings gets, but the reason Ings hasn't made any mistakes as such is because he hasn't been invovled in the game at all to put him in a position to get things wrong.

Are you sure you are not just engaging in the narrative that has built up around Ings?

The whole cast of this discussion as Watkins vs Ings, with one having to come out on top, is very unhelpful.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

This season he’s been poor.  The Ings/Watkins thing hasn’t worked so far but even when Ollie is on his own he’s been poor, he’s just a shadow of himself.

No he hasn't.

[nick76]

8 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

No he hasn't.

I think you are in the minority with this view mate reading this forum!

Edited December 28, 2021 by nick76

[useless]

Ings hasn't been very good and should have to improve to a great extent if he's to start ahead of Watkins as the main striker.

I made an absolutely brilliant point (sorry I can't think of another way to describe it, maybe 'cuttingly perceptive') that went undeservedly unhailed, I think perhaps because it didn't pander to the overly simplistic idea that Ings is a good signing because we need depth. We didn't sign Ings as back up striker, it's okay saying using him as such, but he himself might not, almost certainly won't be, happy with that scenario, it's not just a case of signing who you want putting them on the bench, if it was that simple we could have just signed Abraham.

[nick76]

3 minutes ago, useless said:

Ings hasn't been very good and should have to improve to a great extent if he's to start ahead of Watkins as the main striker.

Could easily wrote the other way around and be true!

“Watkins hasn't been very good and should have to improve to a great extent if he's to start ahead of Ings as the main striker.”

Neither have shined and both arguments for starters could be had

Edited December 28, 2021 by nick76

[Laughable Chimp]

15 minutes ago, useless said:

Ings hasn't been very good and should have to improve to a great extent if he's to start ahead of Watkins as the main striker.

I made an absolutely brilliant point (sorry I can't think of another way to describe it, maybe 'cuttingly perceptive') that went undeservedly unhailed, I think perhaps because it didn't pander to the overly simplistic idea that Ings is a good signing because we need depth. We didn't sign Ings as back up striker, it's okay saying using him as such, but he himself might not, almost certainly won't be, happy with that scenario, it's not just a case of signing who you want putting them on the bench, if it was that simple we could have just signed Abraham.

Lol

[nick76]

Can’t believe they are openly advertising on social media to Arsenal or Newcastle about selling Ollie

 

[Laughable Chimp]

21 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Could easily wrote the other way around and be true!

“Watkins hasn't been very good and should have to improve to a great extent if he's to start ahead of Ings as the main striker.”

Neither have shined and both arguments for starters could be had

Not really. One has been mediocre. The other has been terrible. It's not a hard choice.

Watkins is the better goalscorer atm. Links up better with the team. Better in the air. Better presses too I guess.

What exactly has Ings shown so far this season that makes you think he's a better choice than Watkins right now?

Edited December 28, 2021 by Laughable Chimp

[nick76]

16 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Not really. One has been mediocre. The other has been terrible. It's not a hard choice.

Opinion

17 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Watkins is the better goalscorer atm.

Don’t confuse scored more goals with better goalscorer, obviously Ings is technically the better goal scorer but Ollie has scored more so far although their goals per minute is not massively different…something like 1 goal per 310 v 270 minutes

18 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Links up better with the team.

Got to say this is debatable this season, his decision making has been poor this season.  This is supposed to be one of his best attributes unlike Ings but Ollie has been poor and on a separate stat Ollie has less assists this season than Ings.

21 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Better presses too I guess.

Ings was beating Ollie on this before Gerrard came with stats to back it up, which was talked a lot about on this forum.  With Ings being out and Gerrard’s games I haven’t looked at the latest stats.

24 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

What exactly has Ings shown so far this season that makes you think he's a better choice than Watkins right now?

I don’t, I think they are about the same footings at the moment and I would make my choice based on the particular game and opponent.  I don’t think either have been in form.  Ings is the better finisher, Ollie is more mobile.  

I don’t think either have earned the No.9 spot to be honest but one gets the spot but I definitely don’t think either have been much better than some suggest on here.

So I would pick the player that suits the game and the other players we play around him, that’s how I’d choose whether Ings or Ollie plays.

[Laughable Chimp]

32 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Opinion

Don’t confuse scored more goals with better goalscorer, obviously Ings is technically the better goal scorer but Ollie has scored more so far although their goals per minute is not massively different…something like 1 goal per 310 v 270 minutes

Got to say this is debatable this season, his decision making has been poor this season.  This is supposed to be one of his best attributes unlike Ings but Ollie has been poor and on a separate stat Ollie has less assists this season than Ings.

Ings was beating Ollie on this before Gerrard came with stats to back it up, which was talked a lot about on this forum.  With Ings being out and Gerrard’s games I haven’t looked at the latest stats.

I don’t, I think they are about the same footings at the moment and I would make my choice based on the particular game and opponent.  I don’t think either have been in form.  Ings is the better finisher, Ollie is more mobile.  

I don’t think either have earned the No.9 spot to be honest but one gets the spot but I definitely don’t think either have been much better than some suggest on here.

So I would pick the player that suits the game and the other players we play around him, that’s how I’d choose whether Ings or Ollie plays.

Take penalty against Watford out. Ings non-penalty goal return is 470 minutes per goal. It's a very big difference. If we're only looking at recent form, it's also definitely Watkins. Being the better finisher is meaningless if you can't actually translate it into more goals. Bottom line is, I'm expecting a goal from playing Watkins more than I am from playing Ings.

The assist thing is a massive anomaly. He's somehow managed to have some of the worst key passes/expected assist/shot creation stats in the league yet also gotten 2 assists. 3 key passes the entire season is absurdly low.

To put into perspective how ridiculous that is, Bruno Fernandes has 10 key passes in the one match against us this season and not one of them turned into an assist. And that's probably closer to what you'd ordinarily expect than the ridiculous key passes to assist conversion that Ings is putting up.

Both Watkins and Ings press and they'v3 always pressed at around similar levels. The difference is that Watkins has always been the smarter presser. Ings pressing is a bit ineffective, hence his really low successful pressure percentage.

I really don't think it's debatable that Watkins links up better than Ings. Ings straight up disappears from games because the ball never reaches him and remains isolated. Say what you want about Watkins, at least he's there to receive the ball. Like useless said earlier, you notice his mistakes because he's at least in a position to make these mistakes. Ings can't even do that at times.

At the end of the day, I think both aren't performing well. But no way have their performances been on the same level.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Laughable Chimp

[icouldtelltheworld]

2 hours ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Does anyone think he has improved as a player since joining?

He's still a good player, but I must admit I expected him to kick on a bit more. Maybe improve the areas he isn't so strong in, like his decision making.

His hold up play has definitely improved during his time here, I'd argue that looked a weakness in his game when he arrived but is now one of his main strengths. I think his goalscoring instincts and positioning have improved also (early last season he'd never have regularly scored goals whilst putting in below par performances as he has at times this year) - but he will never be a top class finisher IMO.

The really disappointing thing for me is that his footballing intelligence and decision making has not improved, and if anything seems to have regressed this year. I have faith that he will continue to develop though.

[nick76]

14 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Take penalty against Watford out. Ings non-penalty goal return is 470 minutes per goal. It's a very big difference. If we're only looking at recent form, it's also definitely Watkins. Being the better finisher is meaningless if you can't actually translate it into more goals. Bottom line is, I'm expecting a goal from playing Watkins more than I am from playing Ings.

The assist thing is a massive anomaly. He's somehow managed to have some of the worst key passes/expected assist/shot creation stats in the league yet also gotten 2 assists. 3 key passes the entire season is absurdly low.

To put into perspective how ridiculous that is, Bruno Fernandes has 10 key passes in the one match against us this season and not one of them turned into an assist. And that's probably closer to what you'd ordinarily expect than the ridiculous key passes to assist conversion that Ings is putting up.

Both Watkins and Ings press and they'v3 always pressed at around similar levels. The difference is that Watkins has always been the smarter presser. Ings pressing is a bit ineffective, hence his really low successful pressure percentage.

I really don't think it's debatable that Watkins links up better than Ings. Ings straight up disappears from games because the ball never reaches him and remains isolated. Say what you want about Watkins, at least he's there to receive the ball. Like useless said earlier, you notice his mistakes because he's at least in a position to make these mistakes. Ings can't even do that at times.

At the end of the day, I think both aren't performing well. But no way have their performances been on the same level.

 

Mate, there was a lot of opinion in there.  You’re obviously favouring Ollie on any view in each of the paragraphs and I understand why you are doing that.  I agree on some things but not on others.  

I think we have two quality strikers, both bang out of form, one slightly better on one things, one on another and we should pick the right player to fit the game imo.  You are a hard picking that Ollie starts, which is fine.  I think Ollie has been really poor this season but fortunately he has scored, he’s not the same player as last season.  Ings hasn’t played well either but got his goals early on.  

We aren’t doing something right for our strikers at the moment but I see very little between them at the moment when choosing a starter and so for me it depends on who we play and who the support is on the field for him, which of either of them I would pick.

[nick76]

13 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

His hold up play has definitely improved during his time here, I'd argue that looked a weakness in his game when he arrived but is now one of his main strengths. I think his goalscoring instincts and positioning have improved also (early last season he'd never have regularly scored goals whilst putting in below par performances as he has at times this year) - but he will never be a top class finisher IMO.

The really disappointing thing for me is that his footballing intelligence and decision making has not improved, and if anything seems to have regressed this year. I have faith that he will continue to develop though.

My little concern as well, he seems to have lost a yard of pace.  He was never electric at all but seems slightly slower this season to last.  I wonder if the early season injury has had a little impact, hopefully it will sort itself out.

[icouldtelltheworld]

5 minutes ago, nick76 said:

My little concern as well, he seems to have lost a yard of pace.  He was never electric at all but seems slightly slower this season to last.  I wonder if the early season injury has had a little impact, hopefully it will sort itself out.

You could well be right - I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one with the early season injury, last year he was in incredible shape and he may not be quite back there yet. I also reckon that having a newborn has had an impact on him and potentially his fitness, it can be easy to forget sometimes that the money these young men earn doesn't insulate them from normal human experiences

[gaffer85]

My main gripe with Ollie is his greed or lack of vision 

Its happened at least 3 times since Gerrard took over where he cuts inside a shoots when there's a player  in better position with an easy pass , it's a team game, I don't mind it every now and then but he does every time,

Also if he going to dive learn how to do it, he always goes down now but when he first joined he didn't, it was only after the west ham disallowed goal that he seems to dive at any touch now and the refs aren't buying it

Edited December 28, 2021 by gaffer85
Spelling

[gwi1890]

43 minutes ago, gaffer85 said:

My main gripe with Ollie is his greed or lack of vision 

Its happened at least 3 times since Gerrard took over where he cuts inside a shoots when there's a player  in better position with an easy pass , it's a team game, I don't mind it every now and then but he does every time,

Also if he going to dive learn how to do it, he always goes down now but when he first joined he didn't, it was only after the west ham disallowed goal that he seems to dive at any touch now and the refs aren't buying it

It’s infuriating at times, he’s poor touch leads to him having to let the ball run wide and then takes 2 -3 touches to cut inside for a shot or he takes it even wider for a even harder shot, his link up play in deeper area is fine but, I think its pure greed when he sees that goal, I think we’ll see the best of both him and Ings with Bertrand Traore coming back , Bert and Buendia behind either Ings or Ollie keeping things moving quicker.

[ciggiesnbeer]

To be fair to Watkins and Ings they both have had to change systems few times too many this year. Some adjustment is understandable. I am quite happy with them both. Gerrard and co will get the whole front line working better over time, they key to that is the rest of the outfield where the service comes from. 

I am completely chill because results have been decent regardless, and neither of these players are unknown quantities. They are both great forwards I am looking forward to them scoring hatful's again which I believe will come.

Edited December 29, 2021 by ciggiesnbeer