Ollie Watkins

[Philosopher]

9 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Don’t know if you are agreeing with the question I was asking or disagreeing? I wasn’t saying he was or wasn’t, I was asking the previous comment.

I feel you are being to harsh on him and am explaining why. Ollie is still developing as a striker. He has done very well for us last season, and has never lacked effort. Yesterday's performance was more to do with West Ham's organisation, and the inability of the midfield to provide anything decent to work with. It's grasping to scape goat Watkins in this scenario.

[nick76]

16 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

I feel you are being to harsh on him and am explaining why. Ollie is still developing as a striker. He has done very well for us last season, and has never lacked effort. Yesterday's performance was more to do with West Ham's organisation, and the inability of the midfield to provide anything decent to work with. It's grasping to scape goat Watkins in this scenario.

He was fantastic last season but this season overall he’s been poor. If yesterday was a one off then fine, if it had happened in a handful of games no problem but it’s been the opposite as he’s played well in a handful of games but mostly been poor.  

I don’t think I’m being harsh because its not the only match he’s being like this and I’m not scapegoating, I’m talking about Ollie because this is the Ollie thread.

I really want him to do well like last season and this season I thought he would continue to develop and be more than just he was, that potentially he could develop his game further by influencing the attacking third even when we have games like yesterday, where West Ham’s organisation was to nullify him.  

As a forward you need to contribute whether your team controls the game or like yesterday or other games when it’s a struggle if you want to be a top striker.  You need to create space, or make a menace or create space for others or whatever and not just fans say that midfield couldn’t get to him or West Ham’s organisation was too good.  It’s a poor answer.

He’s not the scapegoat, other players obviously had issues and those can be discussed in their threads, this thread is to talk about Ollie.  He needs to find last seasons form and consistently, and develop traits to cope better with games like yesterday or at least be involved/contribute more.

[Philosopher]

9 minutes ago, nick76 said:

He was fantastic last season but this season overall he’s been poor. If yesterday was a one off then fine, if it had happened in a handful of games no problem but it’s been the opposite as he’s played well in a handful of games but mostly been poor.  

I don’t think I’m being harsh because its not the only match he’s being like this and I’m not scapegoating, I’m talking about Ollie because this is the Ollie thread.

I really want him to do well like last season and this season I thought he would continue to develop and be more than just he was, that potentially he could develop his game further by influencing the attacking third even when we have games like yesterday, where West Ham’s organisation was to nullify him.  

As a forward you need to contribute whether your team controls the game or like yesterday or other games when it’s a struggle if you want to be a top striker.  You need to create space, or make a menace or create space for others or whatever and not just fans say that midfield couldn’t get to him or West Ham’s organisation was too good.  It’s a poor answer.

He’s not the scapegoat, other players obviously had issues and those can be discussed in their threads, this thread is to talk about Ollie.  He needs to find last seasons form and consistently, and develop traits to cope better with games like yesterday or at least be involved/contribute more.

Fair points.

I do think most of what you said could be aimed at Ings, who many consider a top striker. I feel the type of striker you are judging his perfromance by is a world class one, which we simply don't have the profile to attract, let alone afford!

[nick76]

2 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

I feel the type of striker you are judging his perfromance by is a world class one, which we simply don't have the profile to attract, let alone afford!

Maybe!  I’m stems for me from how good he was last season to being largely poor this season.  I think if he was like last season I wouldn’t look at the other parts I mention in the above post.  

[Guest av1]

With Guys like Buendia and Countinho I just don’t think Watkins suits them. Their strength is quick one touch football, which is Ollie’s weakest asset. 
 

He isn’t the sort of striker we need. 

[Philosopher]

15 hours ago, av1 said:

With Guys like Buendia and Countinho I just don’t think Watkins suits them. Their strength is quick one touch football, which is Ollie’s weakest asset. 
 

He isn’t the sort of striker we need. 

Ings is even more not the striker we need if we are playing both Buendia and Coutinho. Neither of these three will provide any kind of running in behind or down the channels (Ings somewhat, but thats not his game). No pace to scare opponents. Every team will play a high line against us give no room for buendia and Coutinho to work their magic and press us high, which is already our weakness.

On the contrary, we need Watkins to stretch teams and create the space for Buendia and Coutinho. His role isn't to play cute one touch football. His role is to stretch, to get in behind and to offer an option for more direct balls, and finish things off in the box. Watkins is absolutely crucial to getting the best out of Buendia and Coutinho. Watkins is supposed to be on the end of Buendia and Coutinho's throughballs, not playing one touch football in front of the opposition defense.

What made Watkins so effective last season is one we were very much a counter attacking team and two Watkins would be hit by direct balls, Jack would quickly support him (as he was told to stay high and not track back), Watkins would lay it off to Jack, and Jack would then hold it up, or win a free kick, or beat a couple of players.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Philosopher

[tonyh29]

if we could teach Watkins to control a ball it would be a good start  ... His movement is quite good but his decision making at times  isn't the best 

if we can get £40m for him then I'd consider it  , but I don't know who we would go after to replace him  

[Philosopher]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

if we could teach Watkins to control a ball it would be a good start  ... His movement is quite good but his decision making at times  isn't the best 

if we can get £40m for him then I'd consider it  , but I don't know who we would go after to replace him  

I agree with most of this. His control is inconsistent. His decision making can let him down. His movement is very good. His movement is not just about attacking, but also defending from the front, and pressing. I think he is worth more than £40m. If Werner was worth £50m, if a 1 year on his contract Ings was worth £30m, and £40m for Tammy, i'd put Watkins value closer to £50m.

I think with the football Gerrard wants to play Watkins can be an important player, but obvisously if we could attract a world class striker then Watkins would very much be replaceable. 

[nick76]

1 hour ago, Philosopher said:

Ings is even more not the striker we need if we are playing both Buendia and Coutinho. Neither of these three will provide any kind of running in behind or down the channels (Ings somewhat, but thats not his game). No pace to scare opponents. Every team will play a high line against us give no room for buendia and Coutinho to work their magic and press us high, which is already our weakness.

On the contrary, we need Watkins to stretch teams and create the space for Buendia and Coutinho. His role isn't to play cute one touch football. His role is to stretch, to get in behind and to offer an option for more direct balls, and finish things off in the box. Watkins is absolutely crucial to getting the best out of Buendia and Coutinho. Watkins is supposed to be on the end of Buendia and Coutinho's throughballs, not playing one touch football in front of the opposition defense.

What made Watkins so effective last season is one we were very much a counter attacking team and two Watkins would be hit by direct balls, Jack would quickly support him (as he was told to stay high and not track back), Watkins would lay it off to Jack, and Jack would then hold it up, or win a free kick, or beat a couple of players.

I disagree with your analysis re Watkins working with them, I don’t think Watkins style is suited with Coutinho and Buendia.  I agree with @av1 he’s not the right style of striker to play with them if they were both in the team.

[villa89]

16 hours ago, av1 said:

He isn’t the sort of striker we need. 

Indeed. We need a good one. 

[nick76]

3 minutes ago, villa89 said:

Indeed. We need a good one. 

Harsh! I think he’s been poor for most of the season but generally I’m not convinced he’s going to fit into Gerrard’s system long term.  I wouldn’t be surprised if Watkins left us at the end of the season as Gerrard looks for a better suited style of striker for his system.  I’m not saying world class before anybody jumps on me, I’m saying different style.

edit: I don’t know who either before somebody asks me to suggest a name.

Edited March 15, 2022 by nick76

[Philosopher]

8 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I disagree with your analysis re Watkins working with them, I don’t think Watkins style is suited with Coutinho and Buendia.  I agree with @av1 he’s not the right style of striker to play with them if they were both in the team.

If we don't have a forward with the pace and movement to stretch teams, Gerrards system is bound to fail!

[VillaParkAvenue]

Not many successful strikers currently in the Prem.

Lukaku and Werner make Watkins look prolific. Kane is only slowly finding form and Ronaldo is very inconsistent. Lacazette and Richarlison have 4 goals each this season.

The overall trend is goals are more spread out, classic 9s score less, wingers and attacking midfielders more.

There are some prolific strikers in Europe but they often stop scoring if they come to England. Many teams are looking for that reliable goal scorer but he seems hard to find.

 

[PaulC]

One poor game and he is suddely back getting stick. Lets not forget the previous two where he scored two great goals. 

[nick76]

1 hour ago, Philosopher said:

If we don't have a forward with the pace and movement to stretch teams, Gerrards system is bound to fail!

I agree but there are several of styles of forward that fits that remit and for me, Watkins style doesn’t suit Gerrard’s style long term.

[nick76]

49 minutes ago, PaulC said:

One poor game and he is suddely back getting stick. Lets not forget the previous two where he scored two great goals. 

I understand your point but easily I could say pre the last game that he’s had two good games and suddenly he’s a hero to some after a relatively poor season overall.  

[TRO]

19 hours ago, Philosopher said:

Fair points.

I do think most of what you said could be aimed at Ings, who many consider a top striker. I feel the type of striker you are judging his perfromance by is a world class one, which we simply don't have the profile to attract, let alone afford!

I think it can be aimed at more than just the strikers, but we can only talk about Ollie in this thread

You have to "work " your opposite number is the point.

[Zatman]

1 hour ago, PaulC said:

One poor game and he is suddely back getting stick. Lets not forget the previous two where he scored two great goals. 

He didnt score vs Leeds

[PaulC]

12 minutes ago, Zatman said:

He didnt score vs Leeds

ok 

[The_Steve]

Ollie not celebrating with the lads - gotta question his attitude and commitment 

Edited March 16, 2022 by The_Steve