chrisp65 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 5 minutes ago, CVByrne said: Land and property is just one form of wealth store. You can just put everything into gold for example or oil futures or whatever. Also it's difficult to accurately value assets like big properties etc. So not easy So, no reason not to do it other than laziness or not wishing to upset patrons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuwabatake Sanjuro Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Meanwhile in Argentina 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuwabatake Sanjuro Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 2 hours ago, CVByrne said: The issue is what is far left and right is hard to understand. In Ireland the vote was Sinn Fein supporters moving to vote for the Freedom Party. It's hard to pin down what is what other than "anti establishment and populist". Votes going from what would be left of the estimated parties to right of them. I think in the US a lot of Democratic party voters in rust belt became big Trump supporters. It's hard to pin down and categorise people correctly into their voting group let's say. I'm not sure there is any more of SF voters going to the far right than say FG or FF switching (both of whom have lost votes since the last locals while SF is up in comparison to 2019). I think the bigger issue was SF failing to get their vote out especially in working class areas, many demotivated with SF pandering to the right. The turnout in the 2020 GE was 62% compared to around 50%, that 12% of disenfranchised voters can be there for the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuwabatake Sanjuro Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 3 hours ago, Captain_Townsend said: The big story of the Irish election is the fact that the centre parties have held. Good elections for Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, the Labour Party making a comeback, the Social Democrats doing well, the Greens not doing as badly as expected. Part of the problem perhaps is that media in some countries seem to amplify this idea that the far right is doing better than it is (yes UK, I am looking at you!) Not really as the extreme fat right has made an electoral breakthrough for the first time while the centre has moved right with Simon Harris now open to our own Rwanda, unthinkable two years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: So, no reason not to do it other than laziness or not wishing to upset patrons? No, as I stated earlier need to work together in Western World to tackle it from all sides. If we require people to declare their assets and wealth they can only flee to Middle East if they want to avoid wealth tax. Not possible if they need to own US and European assets. You can't unilaterally just begin a tax reform of this scale on your own. People just obscure or move to avoid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Just now, CVByrne said: No, as I stated earlier need to work together in Western World to tackle it from all sides. If we require people to declare their assets and wealth they can only flee to Middle East if they want to avoid wealth tax. Not possible if they need to own US and European assets. You can't unilaterally just begin a tax reform of this scale on your own. People just obscure or move to avoid. How are they moving or obscuring a building in central London one a large slice of Scotland. They can’t shift it to the Middle East, they can’t declare it spends most of its time in Vanuatu. It’s simply a lack of desire. If the person checking whether my mum can now walk after 30 years in a wheelchair was reallocated to a different tax evasion I could see more benefit to the state. Either increased tax, or property becoming significantly cheaper, or land banks being freed up. It’s a lazy cop out to be told it’s too difficult and too risky. What loss would there be if someone paying no tax sold up and left? I’m sure Claridges and the Bentley salesman would be upset. But it would be a net gain. We can’t keep taxing those with little to entice the rich to give us some trickle down benefit. It’s a system that’s been proven not to work. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 10 Moderator Share Posted June 10 9 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: How are they moving or obscuring a building in central London one a large slice of Scotland. Stick it in a trust for their kids or some such loophole? “Sell” it to a charity or company they set up for the purpose, basically transfer ownership to another org or person, who is their wife/husband/associate? The buggers will find a way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 21 minutes ago, blandy said: Stick it in a trust for their kids or some such loophole? “Sell” it to a charity or company they set up for the purpose, basically transfer ownership to another org or person, who is their wife/husband/associate? The buggers will find a way No, just change the tax laws so trusts and funds and all the other clever stuff cannot be done. Seriously, the system you describe has been deliberately set up to obscure the protection of wealth. It can just as easily be unpicked. Or at least be honest with people, if you don’t own an office building overlooking the Thames, you’ll have to subsidise the people that do. Be honest about who the tax system benefits. See if that helps quell the rise of the far right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 (edited) The issue is how to target someone who has a lot of value in an asset, say a business owner. If you go for a wealth tax like in Norway in example, you'd likely have to sell stocks or cut work places to be able to scrape together the money to pay the wealth tax. That may work for the super rich, but won't work for people who invest heavily in the business they're building, even the business itself is valuable. How do you get the fluidity required to pay say 10% wealth tax if you have 1 million worth of value in a company, without wrecking your ownership? It's a tough cookie, and it's made billionaires in Norway move to Switzerland at numbers that aren't really good for the Norwegian economy. Wealthy Norwegians flee to Switzerland to evade high wealth taxes, with their bankers following Quote Steep increases in wealth and dividend taxes by Norway’s left-leaning government have prompted dozens of the Nordic nation’s rich to move to another prosperous, mountainous country to the south. Eighty-two rich Norwegians with a combined net wealth of about 46 billion kroner ($4.3 billion) left the country in 2022-2023, with 34 moving out last year alone, according to data from the Finance Ministry. More than 70 of those have moved to Switzerland, business daily Dagens Naeringsliv reported in January. At which point is it a negative for jobs if owning a business means you'll constantly have to pay for the pleasure of having built it? 1 million in assets? 5 million in assets? 10? I'm all for taxing the super rich as they usually got super rich due to the country's workforce, of course they should be taxed, I'm just struggling where finding examples of wealth tax being successfully implemented. In the Norwegian example it's mainly salmon farming companies who have enjoyed the free resources in Norwegian fjords for 50 years, polluted and ¤#% up the ecosystem in the process. Edited June 10 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 2 hours ago, blandy said: Stick it in a trust for their kids or some such loophole? “Sell” it to a charity or company they set up for the purpose, basically transfer ownership to another org or person, who is their wife/husband/associate? The buggers will find a way This is the exact issue. They can find a way. Only way is with West working together to tax wealth. The desire to do this as wealth gap is the biggest issue we face in the next couple of decades. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 8 minutes ago, CVByrne said: This is the exact issue. They can find a way. Only way is with West working together to tax wealth. The desire to do this as wealth gap is the biggest issue we face in the next couple of decades. Good ideas,.... but "those" with the job titles or responsibilities to change the tax system and cut off the loop holes are those that are exploiting the loop holes for themselves and their mates anyway......turkeys voting for xmas ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 10 Moderator Share Posted June 10 23 minutes ago, CVByrne said: This is the exact issue. They can find a way. Only way is with West working together to tax wealth. Not gonna happen, though, IMO. Because (say) if one country sets a slightly lower rate, they know they can attract the Richies to go there, and get the tax from them, rather than some other country getting that tax. Ireland attracted Apple like that. Switzerland is nabbing 'wegian's as someone posted earlier( @magnkarl maybe?). But the real issue is tax havens, and that's something the UK could still do a lot more on (though stuff has been done) - loads of them are under our "wing", if not direct control. Caymans and whatnot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 10 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10 We could start with the royal family. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 5 minutes ago, mjmooney said: We could start with the royal family. Would be great if a lot of these businesses said **** this and left leaving all those properties empty so the royals lose all their money Dont ever see any of these royals giving anything to the poor "peasants" that are homeless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nor-Cal Villan Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 4 hours ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said: Meanwhile in Argentina They love them some Austrians in Argentina 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: Would be great if a lot of these businesses said **** this and left leaving all those properties empty so the royals lose all their money Dont ever see any of these royals giving anything to the poor "peasants" that are homeless You're asking companies to move out of prime real estate for spite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 (edited) 7 minutes ago, colhint said: You're asking companies to move out of prime real estate for spite? No. Greed and to help those who need it. Thought that was quite clear in my post Edited June 10 by Demitri_C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 19 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: No. Greed and to help those who need it. Thought that was quite clear in my post Ain't ever going to happen Dem, same with Manhattan or the 1at arrondissiments in Paris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 10 hours ago, colhint said: Ain't ever going to happen Dem, same with Manhattan or the 1at arrondissiments in Paris. Exactly there lies the problem - no one talks about it or puts pressure on the royals about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted June 13 VT Supporter Share Posted June 13 (edited) I see there is rioting in Argentina as new laws are passed to reduce pensions, destroy unemployment rights and generally **** up the country which is still experiencing 300% + inflation. You can bet your bottom dollar that most who voted in the nutter stated that the other parties were all basically the same and they needed someone to shake up the system. The chainsaw impressed them. Edited June 13 by sidcow 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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