turvontour Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 We will have a price for every player. When you start moving into the £15 to £20mil realm for players that have hardly ever played for us or played in the premier league, then you have a decision to make. Chuk and Ramsey are being sold at the same price as our average signings right now. I.e. Moreno, Kamara, Diaby, Tielemans, Pau Torres, Diego Carlos, Dendonker etc. We're buying tried and tested seasoned internationals, generally for top nations, whilst selling youth players for similar average fees. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cizzler Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) Without knowing the full details behind the buy-back, it’s difficult to pass a fair judgement. Seems like a desperate sale to meet FFP - but maybe the club just don’t rate him, if so fair enough. This is very different to a loan - and people arguing otherwise need a reality check. Loans to PL clubs are still very much an option (Kabore -> Luton, Colwill -> Brighton, [heavily rumoured] Lewis Hall -> Crystal Palace) I’ve never seen a buy-back work in the PL. Fair enough if City didn’t rate Douglas Luiz at the time - but if a buy-back is so simple, why aren’t they in for Lavia (especially if Liverpool are sniffing around)? Ramsey has such a great family story at the club. It’s a shame. Another of our most promising players from our FA Youth Cup win out the door… Irrelevant to the pros and cons of this deal in a vacuum - but there’s ultimately zero point in following the players journey through the Academy thread or Loan thread, if there is not a path to the first team. Is A.Ramsey truly worse than Traore? Or even Countinho or Bailey based on last year’s showing. I’m not sure. I feel like we will regret this one. Edited August 9, 2023 by Cizzler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 We're selling a player who didn't make a single senior start for us and played just 27 minutes for Aston Villa for £14. It's the kind of thing that we wonder how in the world teams like City or Liverpool do it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, Cizzler said: Without knowing the full details behind the buy-back, it’s difficult to pass a fair judgement. Seems like a desperate sale to meet FFP - but maybe the club just don’t rate him, if so fair enough. This is very different to a loan - and people arguing otherwise need a reality check. Loans to PL clubs are still very much an option (Kabore -> Luton, Colwill -> Brighton, [heavily rumoured] Lewis Hall -> Crystal Palace) I’ve never seen a buy-back work in the PL. Fair enough if City didn’t rate Douglas Luiz at the time - but if a buy-back is so simple, why aren’t they in for Lavia (especially if Liverpool are sniffing around)? Ramsey has such a great family story at the club. It’s a shame. Another of our most promising players from our FA Youth Cup win out the door… Irrelevant to the pros and cons of this deal in a vacuum - but there’s ultimately zero point in following the players journey through the Academy thread or Loan thread, if there is not a path to the first team. Is A.Ramsey truly worse than Traore? Or even Countinho or Bailey based on last year’s showing. I’m not sure. I feel like we will regret this one. I don't understand the catastrophising at all here. If we want to sign him back because he's proven he's good enough, we will. There's nothing that can be regretted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turvontour Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 I dont profess to have the knowledge or insight that others have on here in relation to some of our youth players. But my gut with Aaron Ramsey was that he was the weakest out of the crop of Archer, Chuk, philogene etc. That's based on no more than following his progress at his various loan clubs and seeing him for villa youth teams via highlights in the main. I do wonder though whether Villa suspect he has a ceiling, and therefore want to cash in in a calculated sense. I am though surprised by the recent Archer comments but equally they see him on the training pitch every day alongside top half premier league footballers. And as each window passes its top top half prem players that the youth breaking through are up against. I'd always romanticized that we would have Ramsey midfielders playing for Villa, but I think it's also important to view Aaron in his own right and not that he will just become a top prem midfielder like his older brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 10 minutes ago, Cizzler said: Without knowing the full details behind the buy-back, it’s difficult to pass a fair judgement. Seems like a desperate sale to meet FFP - but maybe the club just don’t rate him, if so fair enough. This is very different to a loan - and people arguing otherwise need a reality check. Loans to PL clubs are still very much an option (Kabore -> Luton, Colwill -> Brighton, [heavily rumoured] Lewis Hall -> Crystal Palace) I’ve never seen a buy-back work in the PL. Fair enough if City didn’t rate Douglas Luiz at the time - but if a buy-back is so simple, why aren’t they in for Lavia (especially if Liverpool are sniffing around)? Ramsey has such a great family story at the club. It’s a shame. Another of our most promising players from our FA Youth Cup win out the door… Irrelevant to the pros and cons of this deal in a vacuum - but there’s ultimately zero point in following the players journey through the Academy thread or Loan thread, if there is not a path to the first team. Is A.Ramsey truly worse than Traore? Or even Countinho or Bailey based on last year’s showing. I’m not sure. I feel like we will regret this one. City’s buy back clause for Lavia doesn’t become effective until summer 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cizzler Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, Keyblade said: We're selling a player who didn't make a single senior start for us and played just 27 minutes for Aston Villa for £14. It's the kind of thing that we wonder how in the world teams like City or Liverpool do it. Is it though? A.Ramsey was excellent for Boro last season (top 6 in the Championship) and instrumental in the England u19 Euros win. City have just sold a keeper who was playing for Bolton (in League One) for £20m+. Rhian Brewster went for £24m. Neco Williams went for £20m. Solanke went for £20m in 2019 (with only a loan in the Eredivise). I think £14m is cheap - but again, if the buy-back is concrete, perhaps there was leeway in the fee. You’d hope so anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cizzler Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 Just now, duke313 said: City’s buy back clause for Lavia doesn’t become effective until summer 2024 When is ours on Ramsey effective from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, Cizzler said: When is ours on Ramsey effective from? No idea. Will have to wait to see if they reveal any details about the clause. They may not be identical clauses anyway. Edited August 9, 2023 by duke313 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cizzler Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, lexicon said: I don't understand the catastrophising at all here. If we want to sign him back because he's proven he's good enough, we will. There's nothing that can be regretted. My personal “catostrophising” is because there is no guarantee of this. If he’s really good (which a lot of people think he might be) - why can’t he just sign for Liverpool/ Man U, etc. after he smashes it at Burnley? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 1 minute ago, Cizzler said: My personal “catostrophising” is because there is no guarantee of this. If he’s really good (which a lot of people think he might be) - why can’t he just sign for Liverpool/ Man U, etc. after he smashes it at Burnley? Then we will likely get a % of that sale through a sell on clause 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 How is he weaker than Archer, he was far better than Archer for our academy teams, was an established England youth international and often captain throughout all the age groups, whilst Archer didn't even get in until he was in his twenties, Ramsey was also better than Archer last season at Middlesbrough, as a nineteen year old, at the same age Archer was playing non-league football at Solihull. Aaron Ramsey is probably our best academy product from recent seasons other than Chukwuemeka, and even then it's close. Philogene is probably on a similar level to be fair, he's just been unlucky with injuries, hopefully that's a thing of the past. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cizzler Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 1 minute ago, duke313 said: No idea. Will have to wait to see if they reveal any details about the clause And that’s kind of my point. There’s a lot of people with blind faith in the management at this club (which I don’t think is totally misplaced - it’s the most competent bunch in decades). However, no one knows the details of the “buy-back” yet and there is clearly some risk it could end up stinging us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 It's a shame. He's clearly a talent as he showed in flashes at Norwich and then more regularly at Boro before his season ending injury. Would've been a great story him establishing himself in our first team in two years time alongside his brother but that's the thing...to get a start currently he has to prove himself ahead of JJ, McGinn and then all our actual attackers and perhaps we'll play a formation that just has two out and out attackers and that simply has to be Watkins and Diaby. If he'd been at this stage 12 months ago then he'd have certainly got chances. In ideal world I'd loan him to Burnley for the season and then after 15-20 starts we assess him next pre season but considering how difficult we find it to move on likes of Sanson and Traore for even 5m it's probably no surprise the club have been tempted by cashing in on a homegrown player for 15m. With FFP regulations it probably is a deal too good to turn down. I wish him well and he should do well under Kompany's management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cizzler Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, duke313 said: Then we will likely get a % of that sale through a sell on clause And if he’s an excellent English CM being good enough to start for Champions League clubs, then getting £14m and a % sell-on for a player that we’ve grown through our academy is a terrible deal. It’s not like we can just sign players like that off the street. Edited August 9, 2023 by Cizzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayls Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 Would Southampton's clause with city need to be bought out as well for any potential sale to take place? So when City or Chelsea try and take Ramsey in two seasons times, Burnley will need to pay us to allow that to happen, should it happen within the timeframe we set… let’s say 2.5 years… OR Does it mean City get first refusal now, and if they say no, Southampton can do as they please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfTimePost Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 Proper gutted , the buyback clause is potentially a great idea but have to assume the likelihood it gets activated is low, could easily be PR to keep fans happy about selling one of our own as well as an insurance policy incase he he becomes a world beater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwi1890 Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 It’s good business inevitably some players have to leave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 18 minutes ago, Cizzler said: My personal “catostrophising” is because there is no guarantee of this. If he’s really good (which a lot of people think he might be) - why can’t he just sign for Liverpool/ Man U, etc. after he smashes it at Burnley? Because we have a buy back agreement already signed and sorted in place. What is so hard to understand about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 11 minutes ago, Cizzler said: And if he’s an excellent English CM being good enough to start for Champions League clubs, then getting £14m and a % sell-on for a player that we’ve grown through our academy is a terrible deal. It’s not like we can just sign players like that off the street. If Emery thought he was going to be a CL quality CM, he wouldn’t be getting sold on the cheap with a few clauses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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