Generic Virus Thread

[jimmygreaves]

37 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Or you want to do what you want without considering the well being of others or the greater population.  No doubt the NHS is underfunded, under managed and all the rest but the NHS would never cope with all the funding in the world if we didn’t look after it by being sensible and thinking of others…it’s part of the reason we have seatbelt laws, speeding restrictions, drink driving laws, drug laws, gun laws, hospital rules etc…there has to be some restrictions for the well being of all.  Until we get a proper handle of the virus we have to balance the risk/freedom and that has to take into account NHS capacity as it is, not how a dream NHS should be because we aren’t living in that reality are we.

Surely 50 more hospitals, 1000 more ICU beds, and associated staffing levels (for example) would ease the strain on the NHS?

Edited December 13, 2021 by jimmygreaves

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

Except 

1) as your text states it's primed for an attack from "the same virus". As I stated the virus has mutated beyond what the original vaccinations were designed to prime the immune system for. They were not designed for Omicron, it's mutated.  And even if it hadn't 

2). Boosters would STILL be needed as immunity does wain:

https://www.astrazeneca.com/what-science-can-do/topics/covid-19/waning-immunity.html

 

I said in another post that most vaccine schedules are a three dose protocol (and so people shouldn’t be perturbed about getting a third jab), but I was making a point about the part of your post that I had bolded.

But anyway, from the text: 

Quote

And you’re infected or exposed to a newer variant, your memory t-cells will prevent you from sever disease/hospitalisation because they remember the virus. They’re equipped. Now you might face moderate or mild sickness (think slight fever, cough, runny nose, chills), however your memory T-cells will help you avoid getting really sick…

 

[hippo]

38 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Or you want to do what you want without considering the well being of others or the greater population.  No doubt the NHS is underfunded, under managed and all the rest but the NHS would never cope with all the funding in the world if we didn’t look after it by being sensible and thinking of others…it’s part of the reason we have seatbelt laws, speeding restrictions, drink driving laws, drug laws, gun laws, hospital rules etc…there has to be some restrictions for the well being of all.  Until we get a proper handle of the virus we have to balance the risk/freedom and that has to take into account NHS capacity as it is, not how a dream NHS should be because we aren’t living in that reality are we.

Shouldn't really be a dream though should it.

Basically we are pausing healthcare to cope with covid. Sort of acceptable in principle except the NHS wasn't coping in the first place.

If your vintage car starts getting expensive - you devote more funds to keep it on the road.

 

[El Zen]

@HanoiVillan, I have to say, you are probably my ultimate echo chamber on this. There isn’t a word you have written over these last few pages I would have put differently if I could. Sincerely, thanks for helping me write my own opinions, only better than I could have written them myself.

Edited December 13, 2021 by El Zen

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

It is underfunded.

 

[hippo]

I wonder if how we currently live is more significant than the emergence of covid and its variants.

Basically any sort of new infection/virus whatever has a ready made infustructure to whiz around the world.

From packed aeroplanes circling the globe, packed restaurants, packed pubs, trains etc.

The virus is just the final piece of the jigsaw.

[StefanAVFC]

11 minutes ago, El Zen said:

@HanoiVillan, I have to say, you are probably my ultimate echo chamber on this. There isn’t a word you have written over these last few pages I would have put differently if I could. Sincerely, thanks for helping me write my own opinions, only better than I could have written them myself.

Yep, echoing too  

[Rugeley Villa]

1 hour ago, Wainy316 said:

But where is the logic in that?  Unless you think the vaccines are dangerous in their own right.

 

56 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I don’t understand, it’s a free jab and takes less than 1 minute to administer.  With the local places doing the jabs, people are there and back in less than an hour.  It’s probably one of the least inconvenient things to do.

Of all the things we have to do in life that we don’t want to this is so minuscule and the benefits to the person and others is potentially huge…what am I missing?

I don’t understand the “how long do we keep saying that” either? This isn’t going away, yet a simple jab very infrequently seems a big deal that can protect us.

 

55 minutes ago, brommy said:

I’m struggling to see her logic. We’re all fed up with the virus and wish it would just disappear overnight, but as it’s obviously not going to do that, is it too much trouble to spend 20 minutes getting vaccinated, even if that is once every 4 to 6 months for the foreseeable?

I’m with you lot on this . She feels like she’s being lied to and she’s not totally convinced the vaccines are safe, so now we are going down the anti vaccine path. Her mate who volunteers at a vaccine centre gave her a very good talking to last night and went through some of her concerns . I’m going to talk to her again, because I think she’s being plain stupid. No logic in her reasons. 
 

@nick76 well we keep getting told by our government etc that we are coming through the other side. Just when it looks like we are things go bleak again. That’s what I meant by saying how long do we keep saying this for. We are in a better place because of the vaccines and also other treatments that we are using to fight Covid for people who have it. I suppose I’m not used to the idea of getting jabbed every year or every 6 months either , so no, I’m still not keen on the idea, but I will keep having them until I see fit to do otherwise .

[foreveryoung]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

It is underfunded. The reason we are having this debate about the 'crisis', and there is such a fraught discussion about making sacrifices to 'protect' it, is that it is a system that is pretty much constantly run at 100% (or more) of capacity. The people who are responding to me in OUTRAGE are not wrong when they say staff are exhausted and the system is struggling to cope, it's just that the conclusion they appear to be taking from that - broadly, 'therefore we should accept periodic lockdowns to protect it' - is bad and wrong and will cause more damage than they realise to the organisation they hold dear by turning the public against it.

It's not underfunded mate, they are overpaying on everything, contracts are never negotiated, just signed and paid, there's managers for managers on 100k+ a year. My mothers friend is on 130K a year for 3 days a week work and it's not rare, Even she has said they could lose 30% of the managers/directors and it would make no difference.

It needs proper regulation and management and could save billions a year, money is just poured into it, an they are still living in the 90's with paperwork, it's a mess.

But this is a conversation for another thread.

[nick76]

I’m dropping out of this thread….the government has to take a lot of blame for things but also there seems to be a lot of self entitlement on here which obviously contributes to the problems.  

No wonder we have problems.

[Rugeley Villa]

10 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

It's not underfunded mate, they are overpaying on everything, contracts are never negotiated, just signed and paid, there's managers for managers on 100k+ a year. My mothers friend is on 130K a year for 3 days a week work and it's not rare, Even she has said they could lose 30% of the managers/directors and it would make no difference.

It needs proper regulation and management and could save billions a year, money is just poured into it, an they are still living in the 90's with paperwork, it's a mess.

But this is a conversation for another thread.

Any jobs going? 

[El Zen]

15 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I’m dropping out of this thread….the government has to take a lot of blame for things but also there seems to be a lot of self entitlement on here which obviously contributes to the problems.  

No wonder we have problems.

I am genuinely curious, what self entitlement?

[bickster]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

It's not underfunded mate, they are overpaying on everything, contracts are never negotiated, just signed and paid, there's managers for managers on 100k+ a year. My mothers friend is on 130K a year for 3 days a week work and it's not rare, Even she has said they could lose 30% of the managers/directors and it would make no difference.

It needs proper regulation and management and could save billions a year, money is just poured into it, an they are still living in the 90's with paperwork, it's a mess.

But this is a conversation for another thread.

You've made a basic error here. You are forgetting that the NHS is now a collection of Trusts, these trusts are in effect private buisnesses. The idea was (hahaha) that the NHS being run as a business would make it more efficient, the opposite happened, it just got more and more managers and ignored the people that were doing the actual work, the managers were meant to make the front line staff more efficient, the front line staff were always efficient, it was the burocracy that was wasteful in the NHS, now they've got managers managing the managers who overseee the other managers, they made it worse to make a small amount of people more money and reduced the service levels to below acceptable

It was far more efficient in the '90s

See this was all part of the plan to make it easier to privatise completely. Make it totally inefficient so the public accept privatisation.

You appear to be falling for the trap

It needs to be renationalised to be more efficient and work for the people. The wasted money needs to be applied in the right areas

[foreveryoung]

6 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Any jobs going? 

Your probably over qualified to be a manager let alone a director.

There's data analyst jobs going for a Covid project?? £440-£640 a day, fully remote work from home, they need 30 of emm. Just crazy.........

[bobzy]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

The first bolded is where you go wrong. These restrictions exist - as the NHS does - for the protection of people's health, *not* to 'protect the NHS'. This formulation, that we need to arrange our lives and laws specifically to reduce the burden on the healthcare system, is in fact a recent idea, which has really come to the fore during a period when the government have underfunded the service, and you can certainly see the appeal from their perspective of getting the public to blame each other.

Re the second, I agree, which is why my first post in this recent chain said 'we need to resist the temptation of getting into 'social distancing' to reduce the load on the health service until it literally cannot be avoided'; it is sadly conceivable that the system may reach a point where some social distancing measures do end up being necessary. *However*, it is in no way guaranteed that we reach that point, and it needs to be both an absolute last resort, and acknowledged that it is not a normal or indefinitely repeatable public health intervention.

I’d be all in favour of having lockdowns for a couple of weeks a year. I don’t massively get the fuss.

If it’s about the economy crashing etc, then maybe the dickheads in charge would finally start giving a shit. 

[bobzy]

26 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Your probably over qualified to be a manager let alone a director.

There's data analyst jobs going for a Covid project?? £440-£640 a day, fully remote work from home, they need 30 of emm. Just crazy.........

Link me to the job please, ta!

[hippo]

44 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

It's not underfunded mate, they are overpaying on everything, contracts are never negotiated, just signed and paid, there's managers for managers on 100k+ a year. My mothers friend is on 130K a year for 3 days a week work and it's not rare, Even she has said they could lose 30% of the managers/directors and it would make no difference.

It needs proper regulation and management and could save billions a year, money is just poured into it, an they are still living in the 90's with paperwork, it's a mess.

But this is a conversation for another thread.

So you could lose 30% of managers -but then you state it needs proper regulation and management. !!!

Part of the problem is that the NHS isn't a profit making commercial business but over the years and increasingly there seems a determination to run and bend it to run like a profit driven business. It doesn't work - it's different.

The NHS costs - it's never going to be cheap. After re organisation after re organisation - why not try leaving the dam think alone for a while. I work in the NHS and the changes and initiative s literally come by the week.

I don't believe the NHS is overly inefficient. If there was a more efficient way to run it surely somebody would have found it by now. Let's not forget the current government have been in power 11 years - that should be long enough to find these cost/efficiency savings which we are told exist.

 

 

[hippo]

33 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Your probably over qualified to be a manager let alone a director.

There's data analyst jobs going for a Covid project?? £440-£640 a day, fully remote work from home, they need 30 of emm. Just crazy.........

Staff retention is a real problem in the NHS. Take it from someone who works there.

Project managers top out at around £45k - we just can't keep the decent ones.

[ml1dch]

41 minutes ago, bickster said:

The idea was (hahaha) that the NHS being run as a business would make it more efficient, the opposite happened, it just got more and more managers and ignored the people that were doing the actual work,

The way that it's run means that the people doing the actual work have worked out that they might as well get a piece of the pie as well 

An employed registrar (for example) will earn around £50,000. However, a locum brought in temporarily will earn more than twice that on a daily rate. 

So over the last few years there seems to be a steady production line of newly qualified doctors not going into permanent roles, creating thousands of roles that need to be temporarily filled. And coincidentally enough, thousands of newly qualified doctors who will happily be paid £500 per day, to do the same job as the guy doing it for £50k per year. Whack the whole lot through your "Dr. Smith Medical Services" limited company and pay 20% tax on the whole lot as well. 

No blame on the doctors themselves - if you don't need the stability why wouldn't you do it the way that pays you twice as much and gives you complete flexibility about how much you work? It's not like they are taking much of a risk on whether the demand for their service is there. 

Give it a few more years like this and I reckon you'll see bank nurses going the same way, and nursing will be a 60k per annum job.

[foreveryoung]

1 minute ago, hippo said:

So you could lose 30% of managers -but then you state it needs proper regulation and management. !!!

Part of the problem is that the NHS isn't a profit making commercial business but over the years and increasingly there seems a determination to run and bend it to run like a profit driven business. It doesn't work - it's different.

The NHS costs - it's never going to be cheap. After re organisation after re organisation - why not try leaving the dam think alone for a while. I work in the NHS and the changes and initiative s literally come by the week.

I don't believe the NHS is overly inefficient. If there was a more efficient way to run it surely somebody would have found it by now. Let's not forget the current government have been in power 11 years - that should be long enough to find these cost/efficiency savings which we are told exist.

 

 

Believe me, it can be run much more efficiently. but where would you start. Contractors can literally go in there with a figure and it's paid, they hardly negotiate anymore, cause people don't know what they are doing.

Like I said my mother friend works 3 days a week, don't even go onsite anymore due to Covid, £10k a month, thanks very much. Justified, she even knows she's living the dream, an she's not the only one.