bickster Posted December 27, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 27, 2021 1 minute ago, sidcow said: The way I see it is this. If you are eating at your table and have Covid you might potentially spread it to the people on the tables each side of you. If you walk to the toilet potentially at the far side of the restaurant passing 6 or 7 tables without a mask you are exhaling Covid over a greater number of people. As with most of these things it's trying to have a solution that keeps the restaurant in operation whilst also reducing potential transmission, even by small percentage points. A for example 2% saving in transmission doesn't sound like much but taken across every restaurant in the nation it becomes a much bigger number of cases. I expect future people are far more likely to look back and laugh about what a bunch of moaning nobs people were. Wrong, that is the percieved wisdom from the likes of WHO, which has been passed down via Governments. It is based on something that was accepted as scientific "fact" 60 years ago and it isn't true. That advice is based on the virus not being airbourne because its particles are greater than 5 microns, which 60 years ago was the acceptable limit for airbourne particles. It has been demonstrated since that this is not the case and isn't the case with COVID The virus is airbourne, the whole social distancing / mask wearing in communal areas thing is pointless when you aren't required to wear them in non-communal areas of the same space, just sitting at the table you will infect people on the other side of the room because it's an airbourne virus. Thats why putting a mask on to go to the toilet is almost pointless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, nick76 said: Yeah but I’m not sure people will be laughing about it in a few years time as you say. Plus if you are in a properly ventilated restaurant then protection from a direct contact using a mask is a help, just unfortunate most restaurants don’t have the sufficient ventilation. That's fine, you're entitled to make the opposite prediction, and think that people won'y find it funny. Obviously I disagree. 16 minutes ago, sidcow said: The way I see it is this. If you are eating at your table and have Covid you might potentially spread it to the people on the tables each side of you. If you walk to the toilet potentially at the far side of the restaurant passing 6 or 7 tables without a mask you are exhaling Covid over a greater number of people. I'm sorry to say that this is entirely made-up science. EDIT: To be more clear about this, just because something seems logical, doesn't mean that's how it works. If you look online, you will find several examples of modelled transmission in studies where other people at the same table have not been infected but people on the other side of the room have, and the reason for this is that internal air flows are more complex than simply drawing a circle around a person and declaring that the risk of infection zone. EDIT 2: The other issue with this claim as well is the apparent claim that 'walking past' someone would be enough to give them covid (usually it requires sustained exposure for something like 10-15 minutes). Edited December 27, 2021 by HanoiVillan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lichfield Dean Posted December 27, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted December 27, 2021 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Wrong, that is the percieved wisdom from the likes of WHO, which has been passed down via Governments. It is based on something that was accepted as scientific "fact" 60 years ago and it isn't true. That advice is based on the virus not being airbourne because its particles are greater than 5 microns, which 60 years ago was the acceptable limit for airbourne particles. It has been demonstrated since that this is not the case and isn't the case with COVID The virus is airbourne, the whole social distancing / mask wearing in communal areas thing is pointless when you aren't required to wear them in non-communal areas of the same space, just sitting at the table you will infect people on the other side of the room because it's an airbourne virus. Thats why putting a mask on to go to the toilet is almost pointless Question: this isn't factoring in proximity and density of viral particles and viral load. Surely there would be a larger percentage of viral particles closer to you than further away from you. Even after a period of time, the other side of the room would surely have a smaller level of viral particles. What I'm unsure about is if this is a) likely to be a significant effect, and b) whether viral load is a significant thing when it comes to severity of illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 27, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 27, 2021 14 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said: Question: this isn't factoring in proximity and density of viral particles and viral load. Surely there would be a larger percentage of viral particles closer to you than further away from you. Even after a period of time, the other side of the room would surely have a smaller level of viral particles. What I'm unsure about is if this is a) likely to be a significant effect, and b) whether viral load is a significant thing when it comes to severity of illness. All depends on the airflow in the space but as most restaurants have A/C and probably again most have the wrong sort of A/C (the right sort with the correct filters are very expensive), it doesn't really take any time at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 So wearing masks will offer a small amount of benefit in terms of reducing circulation of virus droplets, but the amount of benefit varies on many variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 51 minutes ago, bickster said: Wrong, that is the percieved wisdom from the likes of WHO, which has been passed down via Governments. It is based on something that was accepted as scientific "fact" 60 years ago and it isn't true. That advice is based on the virus not being airbourne because its particles are greater than 5 microns, which 60 years ago was the acceptable limit for airbourne particles. It has been demonstrated since that this is not the case and isn't the case with COVID The virus is airbourne, the whole social distancing / mask wearing in communal areas thing is pointless when you aren't required to wear them in non-communal areas of the same space, just sitting at the table you will infect people on the other side of the room because it's an airbourne virus. Thats why putting a mask on to go to the toilet is almost pointless Genuine question Bicks: WHO, CDC and UK Health have it wrong? Is there a respected source that is peer reviewed that says different. I’m not being flippant/sarcastic, I’m being genuine because as a lay man I’m intrigued that the top health bodies in the world are out of date and would like to read. Not a magazine article but some paper, I’m just trying to not read something that is biased or angle but a peer reviewed paper because my instinct is to trust The major bodies obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 I’d love to know the average number of times people wear their single use disposable masks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 27, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 27, 2021 4 minutes ago, nick76 said: Genuine question Bicks: WHO, CDC and UK Health have it wrong? Is there a respected source that is peer reviewed that says different. I’m not being flippant/sarcastic, I’m being genuine because as a lay man I’m intrigued that the top health bodies in the world are out of date and would like to read. Not a magazine article but some paper, I’m just trying to not read something that is biased or angle but a peer reviewed paper because my instinct is to trust The major bodies obviously. Yes. It also doesn’t need a current Peer Reviewed paper in relation to the pandemic because that’s not where the research came from. There’s an article I posted from Wired where the mistake is explained and a meeting where it happened with the WHO, who closed down the conversation with a leading authority of movement of particles in the air because they were rigidly sticking to the 5 micron definition of airborne particles. The article is a story about the woman who had to battle with them to get them to understand that 60 year old definition was wrong. I posted a link to the article about a week ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 27, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 27, 2021 7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I’d love to know the average number of times people wear their single use disposable masks. I can count on one hand the amount of people I’ve seen wearing them correctly during the pandemic and I’m not one of those people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 2 minutes ago, bickster said: I can count on one hand the amount of people I’ve seen wearing them correctly during the pandemic and I’m not one of those people December 2021 and my boss still pulls his mask down to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 27, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted December 27, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I’d love to know the average number of times people wear their single use disposable masks. I'm pretty sure the one in my coat pocket and the one in my car have been used significantly longer than would be recommended by any sane person. I keep thinking I should really change them. I've tried washable ones but I always struggle to breath with them much more. The ones I've got now suit me quite well and are far better than the ones I got off Amazon at the start of the pandemic when they were like told dust. Edited December 27, 2021 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 18 minutes ago, bickster said: Yes. It also doesn’t need a current Peer Reviewed paper in relation to the pandemic because that’s not where the research came from. There’s an article I posted from Wired where the mistake is explained and a meeting where it happened with the WHO, who closed down the conversation with a leading authority of movement of particles in the air because they were rigidly sticking to the 5 micron definition of airborne particles. The article is a story about the woman who had to battle with them to get them to understand that 60 year old definition was wrong. I posted a link to the article about a week ago Ok I tried looking for it earlier but couldn’t find it, will look for it though again though tomorrow. I think I’m going to need more than an article in Wired about some respected people not being able to engage with WHO. Surely WHO have similar people who aren’t agreeing. I think you have to defer to the WHO and major country health authorities over the other people in the first instance. I guess if they are right it will gain traction and more agreement over time…probably to late for Covid19 but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 33 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I’d love to know the average number of times people wear their single use disposable masks. For me I reckon it’s about 20-25 times before I replace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 1 minute ago, Genie said: For me I reckon it’s about 20-25 times before I replace it. I’ve got free access to as many masks as I want. I’d still say I often use them for a couple of days before swapping for new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 (edited) I've spent much of this week in NICU, and I'd say about a third of the doctors can't wear their masks properly. What hope have we got from the general population? They have at least all had the decency to look embarrassed and correct it when I call them out which is more than I can say for most people, so that's something. Edited December 27, 2021 by Davkaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 27, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 27, 2021 17 minutes ago, nick76 said: Ok I tried looking for it earlier but couldn’t find it, will look for it though again though tomorrow. I think I’m going to need more than an article in Wired about some respected people not being able to engage with WHO. Surely WHO have similar people who aren’t agreeing. I think you have to defer to the WHO and major country health authorities over the other people in the first instance. I guess if they are right it will gain traction and more agreement over time…probably to late for Covid19 but still. The story is about how they got the WHO to accept the science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 27, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted December 27, 2021 (edited) BBC news at 10: "I am told that what shocked the Prime Minister in today's figures was the sheer number of people seriously ill in hospital who had not been vaccinated which is why he is concentrating on the vaccine message instead of introducing new restrictions." Why the **** will people not get the message? Idiots. Natural selection in play at this point. Edited December 27, 2021 by sidcow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 From what I can tell the Government is making zero effort to stress the point that the people in hospital with covid are mainly unvaccinated (proportionally). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 42 minutes ago, bickster said: The story is about how they got the WHO to accept the science Ok cool thanks, I will look tomorrow for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chine Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: I’d love to know the average number of times people wear their single use disposable masks. Wife is a teacher , disposes of at least 1 a day , eldest at college 1 a day , youngest at school 1 a day , I don’t have much use for one as I work outside and don’t pub/shop etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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