Recruitment

[TRO]

On 02/06/2020 at 00:05, The Fun Factory said:

We just need a consistent recruitment policy that works and have  coaches that are able to have a style of play that is correct for the squad of players we have at  a particular time. 

This will help to avoid the endless changes of players and styles of play we have suffered with for years whenever we change managers.

The amount of money we have wasted in the past 10-15 years  on perfectly decent players who are shifted out of B6 as the new manager wants his own players must be astronomical. 

I like Smith and hope he stays for a while but it is naive to expect a manager to come in nowadays and to 'build' a side like Fergie or Wenger. They are never round long enough, the days of managers staying at clubs for  5-10 years is gone.  They are just hired guns, even the best rarely stay more than 3 seasons.

You need to have recruitment to be away from this and avoid the shocks of management change every 2-3 years.

but the managers you mentioned, never built 1 team.......they built several.

its not a 5 minute job, but equally, it doesn't take ages either. ( only if you sign the wrong ones)

Edited June 21, 2020 by TRO

[Dave-R]

On 31/05/2020 at 11:21, TRO said:

I certainly have my doubts.....I also wonder how much influence Dean has got, with recruitment of players.

It seems to me, don't rock the boat is his stance.

Yes I also think Smith is very limited on his influence at Villa with signings.

I think Dean has had very little success in obtaining the actual players he wanted, for all we know that could be true and it could be as bad as he's got his 3rd or 4th best choice in each position.

I think we certainly deserve to know the truth on whos making these signings, who has the final say ,it all would be nice at least. It would certainly help fans out to decide is it Smiths fault for bringing in signings that have been below par or is it Suso or Purslow, who has thay final say l, at the moment Smith takes all the heat and blame which is not entirely fare until we know who makes those decisions in that area. What Smith is to blame for and his staff is anything that is Coached, signing wise it would be very useful to see who pulls the strings so that the blame can be pointed in the right direction.

I also get what hour saying, Smith is to soft, he's vocal on the pitch and towards officials but towards own work partner it does sound as though he won't say anything because it will cause grief. Personally if it's wrong I want him to pipe up and get his point across and sort the issue out, not steer round it because the red tapes popped up, I want him to cut through the tape even if it causes an issue and makes him nuisance..

I do feel there is abit to much secrecy going on and it needs to stop.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Dave-R

[sne]

22 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

The only positive thing I can say about our recruitment, and I’m really clutching at straws here, is that if we do stay up, we have some semblance of a squad to build on for next season. 

Even that’s a stretch though as I don’t think the majority of our players are good enough even to be squad players in this division. 

In reality, and if we’re all honest with ourselves, last summer was an absolute shitshow. We’ve tried to work to a model of signing quality Unknown’s from abroad in the hope they improve us and in turn, their value rises meaning anyone who wants to sign them would have to pay a premium. What we’ve actually done is sign a load of dross who we’ll struggle to get rid of because no one will want to take them off our hands and now we’re stuck with them.

To spend 140m and be no stronger than last season (arguable), is nothing short of gross negligence on the part of the recruitment team. If I was the owner of Aston Villa, I’d be furious with how this season has panned out. That’s not to say I’d be expecting a champions league finish, but I’d certainly expect to see more than I have having handed out so much money. 

If we go down, we’ll lose Mings, McGinn and Grealish. Where does that leave us? In a far, far worse position than when NSWE took over. 

 

We've spent about £55-60m on domestic players players Heaton, Mings, Targett, Konsa, Hause to build the worst defense in the league. Not sure we got value for money there either.

To say it was all down to the signings from abroad is not 100% correct.

[TRO]

36 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

The only positive thing I can say about our recruitment, and I’m really clutching at straws here, is that if we do stay up, we have some semblance of a squad to build on for next season. 

Even that’s a stretch though as I don’t think the majority of our players are good enough even to be squad players in this division. 

In reality, and if we’re all honest with ourselves, last summer was an absolute shitshow. We’ve tried to work to a model of signing quality Unknown’s from abroad in the hope they improve us and in turn, their value rises meaning anyone who wants to sign them would have to pay a premium. What we’ve actually done is sign a load of dross who we’ll struggle to get rid of because no one will want to take them off our hands and now we’re stuck with them.

To spend 140m and be no stronger than last season (arguable), is nothing short of gross negligence on the part of the recruitment team. If I was the owner of Aston Villa, I’d be furious with how this season has panned out. That’s not to say I’d be expecting a champions league finish, but I’d certainly expect to see more than I have having handed out so much money. 

If we go down, we’ll lose Mings, McGinn and Grealish. Where does that leave us? In a far, far worse position than when NSWE took over. 

 

I have been waiting for this post.....its smack on.....

There should be an inquest.......I hope the club don't sweep it under the carpet.

we only have to ask ourselves.....would we be confident of beating Leeds or the baggies?...... We would still struggle against Brentford.

Edited June 21, 2020 by TRO

[Darth Villa]

I think if you look at the short-term picture then we are a weaker team than that which got us promoted (we've missed Tammy from the off and I can't help but feel Jack has had his head turned, whilst Mings isn't quite so dominant at this level and our keeper situation is still a joke).

However, in the longer term we have now built "a" squad that are all under contract, if we go down then we'll be competitive without panicking about FFP, if we stay up then we have a platform to build on. 

Our owners aren't daft and whilst not all the moneyball signings are working out this season we have seen key assets appreciate - Grealish, Mings & McGinn are now worth more than what they paid for the club and have spent since. We as fans might not like it but it's how Spurs have pulled ahead of us since the Learner days, growing and selling and reinvesting.

They're building a foundation at the moment to cover a number of eventualities and we're a year ahead of the original plan having come up through the play offs last year. I do think Suso is lacking in many ways and not sure Smith has much influence either but if you take our frustrations away and look at this as a pure recovery operation from which to move forward then you have to say we're a million miles away from bankruptcy, have grown the value of the club and still have survival in our own hands - all in the midst of this pandemic situation. 

I think we need a better balance to the squad regardless of division but you can't overlook how far and fast we've come on - it's just annoying to see individual mistakes costing us so many points! We could and should have been safe by now..

Edited June 21, 2020 by Darth Villa
Typo fix

[useless]

Nobody knows which players Smith wanted or didn't want, so it's pointless guessing and making wild accusations on those guesses. People havea tendency to presume that Smith wanted the British based players and the others from Belgium were Pitarch's doing, but we know that it was Smith's idea to sign Engels as he wanted him at Brentford. The truth is most likely that most of the signings were Pitarch's idea, because that's his job, and Smith agreed to them,  I doub't he has any player forced upon him that he doesn't want, so they're both responsible.

Also I get the feeling that Pitarch was a sort of stop gap appointment, when our owners came in we didn't even have any kind of a scouting network, so we had to get someone in as soon as possible, to help with transfers in the limited amount of time we had that summer before the window closed. Wouldn't be surprised to see us make a change there, regardless of whether we stay up or go down.

 

[useless]

Another way in which Smith hasn't helped matters with regards to recruitment is the way he keeps chopping and changing the side, it's hard enough to bed in a new team, but it's even harder when they're playing in a different team every week in  terms of personnel, from one game to the next we seem to play with a completely different midfield and defence, I know it can't be helped in the present circumstances, but I think a more settled team would have helped us earlier in the season, it's something I'm surprised doesn't get talked about more, none of us including Smith, have any idea what our best eleven is, all that we know is that it would contain Grealish, McGinn, Mings and Heaton, and probably Targett.

[sne]

Engels agent is at least claiming that he was the architect behind our signings with the Belgian connection and that he "helped" us by working with Suso to get it done.

[TRO]

23 minutes ago, sne said:

We've spent about £55-60m on domestic players players Heaton, Mings, Targett, Konsa, Hause to build the worst defense in the league. Not sure we got value for money there either.

To say it was all down to the signings from abroad is not 100% correct.

• Hause is sure value for money......has a brain fart in him, but unfairly rated imo.
• Mings has been up and down with form, but still our best defender.
• Targett was grossly over priced.....slow, laboured, not proactive enough.
• Konsa still has youth on his side but 12 million, not so sure about that.....too tentative, lacks aggression.

I am sure other teams could have got that quality for a fraction of what we paid out......maybe time was against us, in having to sign so many, but we have to sign so many because we keep getting signings wrong ( or they can't get anything from them)

I would imagine the Traore cock up must be the booby prize for all coaches and scouts to be measured by.......what on earth, couldn't they not see that Nuno could.....He has always had that blistering pace, but now his footwork and vision is there.....did they ever work with him one on one?.....why did they throw the towel in so early......The really sad thing for me is, I have doubts he would have turned out like this, if he had of stayed with us.

I do honestly get the impression, none of these players get one on one tuition, just a group thing, (with "leave it to them" to improve their own game, which a bit of that is required,granted)......but I could be wrong of course.

Edited June 21, 2020 by TRO

[useless]

I get the feeling, and Pitarch has more or less admitted iit himself when he was questioned about his connection to Mendes, that he's more someone who has contacts with lots of agents and scouts than someone who's a football person in the sense that some other Directors of Football are. But then again you would have said that Steve Round was more a footballing person and look at the job he did, one thing you can say for Pitarch is that he oversaw our only transfer window that's lead to any kind of success over the past ten years, that being the January transfer window of 2019.

[Tomaszk]

27 minutes ago, sne said:

Engels agent is at least claiming that he was the architect behind our signings with the Belgian connection and that he "helped" us by working with Suso to get it done.

Suso is a guy we needed in 2006.

You don't succeed now by asking agents who to sign. You get mugged.

£20m on Wes. Jesus.

[TRO]

34 minutes ago, Dave-R said:

Yes I also think Smith is very limited on his influence at Villa with signings.

I think Dean has had very little success in obtaining the actual players he wanted, for all we know that could be true and it could be as bad as he's got his 3rd or 4th best choice in each position.

I think we certainly deserve to know the truth on whos making these signings, who has the final say ,it all would be nice at least. It would certainly help fans out to decide is it Smiths fault for bringing in signings that have been below par or is it Suso or Purslow, who has thay final say l, at the moment Smith takes all the heat and blame which is not entirely fare until we know who makes those decisions in that area. What Smith is to blame for and his staff is anything that is Coached, signing wise it would be very useful to see who pulls the strings so that the blame can be pointed in the right direction.

I also get what hour saying, Smith is to soft, he's vocal on the pitch and towards officials but towards own work partner it does sound as though he won't say anything because it will cause grief. Personally if it's wrong I want him to pipe up and get his point across and sort the issue out, not steer round it because the red tapes popped up, I want him to cut through the tape even if it causes an issue and makes him nuisance..

I do feel there is abit to much secrecy going on and it needs to stop.

I have my doubts and thats all it is.

You have to be able to manage UP and the sad fact is Dean is too grateful for the job and that manifests itself in to so many things.

Dean has to contend with Suso, Purslow and Wes Edens who seems to think he knows all about recruitment ..( "its so darn simple").....Dean has my sympathies there, but who realistically with any ambition, would sign for Dean, he does not have the presence of charisma to tempt players in, he has not got the coaching reputation to transform a Traore, to put on his CV.......until he has something tangible to shout about, he will suffer in silence, they will be reluctant to listen.....If we suddenly went on a winning run and finshed 14/15 he could walk around Villa Park with his todger out.....They would listen to him more and he would get his way with transfers......The Clough's, The Guardiola's, The Klopps, the Fergusons, make their own presence.

I am not sure Dean will be given that time, at present its all nepotism and I think that will eventually wear thin, if he doesn't come up with something in the way of wins or game domination. He will rightly or wrongly, get the blame.

A bigger reputation manager, would have the confidence, he could get a job anywhere, Dean does not have that card to play, this is the biggest job he will ever get, with his current win ratio......That keeps the hierarchy on their toes, which they don't like, so its go for an easy time, don't want a demanding manager, who keeps driving for more.

I feel pretty sure in my own mind that the buy with one eye on selling syndrome is prevalent and one of the reasons a Robbie Savage, Nobby Stiles or Des Bremner, is unlikely to be bought, sure I would love similar style but better, but we haven't even got one of them on the books.

I would presume, no sell on value.....But I say " what about the team" " what about the balance of the side".....I look at our side and I honestly think the players we are missing in the main, could be got for modest money....... a good scout and coach could get one from the lower divisions and groom him in to a TEAM player.....I can't see that happening with this set up.

sadly for me.....I am pretty sure they are convinced they are doing the right thing.....we will see.

[sne]

1 minute ago, Tomaszk said:

Suso is a guy we needed in 2006.

You don't succeed now by asking agents who to sign. You get mugged.

£20m on Wes. Jesus.

While I think we messed up to some extent I also have a bit of understanding as to why we didn't get it right because of the circumstances.

We went up via the play off, had almost no players under contract and the transfer window was 3 weeks shorter than it usually is. That's a lot of things that had to be done in a very short time.

[Tomaszk]

4 minutes ago, sne said:

While I think we messed up to some extent I also have a bit of understanding as to why we didn't get it right because of the circumstances.

We went up via the play off, had almost no players under contract and the transfer window was 3 weeks shorter than it usually is. That's a lot of things that had to be done in a very short time.

All we heard was how prepared they were. They had two packed lists for if we went up and if we didn't. Wrong choices were made. For £20m we could have signed a striker and winger both better than Wes and Trez.

 

[sne]

1 minute ago, Tomaszk said:

All we heard was how prepared they were. They had two packed lists for if we went up and if we didn't. Wrong choices were made. For £20m we could have signed a striker and winger both better than Wes and Trez.

 

Yeah absolutely.

But a list is just that. Then you have clubs, agents, players, other clubs bidding and tons of other stuff that happens along the way.

[useless]

When you look at it, in 2015 we spent about £60m which was a lot of money then to only get relegated, then we spent close to a £100m trying to get promoted from the championship, more than that if you count loans, and now we've spent another £140m trying to stay in the premier league, and that's looking likely to fail. That's £300m to get relegated, come back up and then go straight back down, we must be the most calamitous club when it comes to transfers.

To top it off, if you wanted to sign those players we bought back in 2015, you'd probably be looking at close to £150m for them now, if not more, in total we received Adomah, for Adamah, Neil Taylor for Ayew, around £5m for Veretout, £8m for Gueye, and around £10m for Amavi, and I'm not even sure if we received all that money because Xia had to sell some of the future rights to transfer payments on some players.

Not sure what's wrong, but seems something needs to change with regards to our recruitment, maybe need to stop messing about and bring in some people who know what they're doing and have proven as such.

[Johnnyp]

Also, why still ( not just at Villa ) at lots of clubs in England do we persist with suits who never played the game or if they did not at a high level, to cast an eye over and unearth talent. Michael Zorc at Dortmund is arguably football's best sporting director. Played hundreds of games for them. Ajax have loads of their former top players in director and recruitment positions.

[ciggiesnbeer]

I still like our recruitment and our players. Our players have got worse over this season not better. Thats coaching and management, not recruitment. 

[Johnnyp]

2 minutes ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

I still like our recruitment and our players. Our players have got worse over this season not better. Thats coaching and management, not recruitment. 

At what point in the season did you think they were good ?

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

I still like our recruitment and our players. Our players have got worse over this season not better. Thats coaching and management, not recruitment. 

I dont most of them are poor.

I like targett Luiz and nakamba.

I dont like trez jota el ghazi hause and wes has looked generally shit.

Mings konsa samatta have been decent but inconsistent