Douglas Luiz

[duke313]

8 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Anyone got a stat map comparison of Luiz and Tielemans showing their defensive and offensive contributions?

I'd imagine they aren't miles apart over last season per 90 minutes. 

He's a slightly different player to Luiz, but ultimately the most similar we've got. Maybe we bought Dougie's replacement last window.

Then we'll look to improve elsewhere in midfield this window, and sign a prospect to replace Youri in due course. 

[sne]

Fascinating kinda reversed situation to when our injured players becomes better and better the longer they stay injured. At this rate by the time Luiz is sold he'll be labeled as a poor mans Ashley Westwood who was only ever rated because of his fancy foreign name. 

[andym]

I'm not sure where this myth that his form fell off a cliff for a large part of the second half of the season, with an ever earlier start time that now appears to be christmas, comes from. Same with the 'he can't play without kamara' nonsense.

Yeah he wasn't as good as the start of the year, but given the ridiculously high level he and the rest of the team had been playing at, we were never going to keep that going with all the injuries starting to mount.

After Kamara's injury at the start of February we lost just 1 of the next 8 games in all competitions, taking us to the start of April. We won 5 of them and Luiz contributed with goals and assists.

After that is when the real drop off happened, as we hit the insane schedule with the euro conference quarters and semis; we played 12 games in 6 and half weeks. But he wasn't the only one to struggle then; not surprisingly, it was our most relied on players since Emery got here in McGinn and Konsa who also dropped off the most, they simply ran out of gas. Konsa in particular had an awful end to the season.

Yes we did have two really good performances without him at Arsenal and home to Bournemouth, but then we didn't have Kamara for those either, so get rid of him as well? Relying on two games without him where we did well, but ignoring other games where he'd been rested in cups and we'd looked clueless in progressing the ball, and ignoring that he's been the mainstay of the midfield throughout our crazy improvement under Emery (like Watkins, he's super reliable in terms of fitness, which shouldn't be overlooked), seems mad to me.

If he has to go because of finances etc, then so be it, but he is going to leave a huge hole in the side that will need replacing. While the midfield players we are being linked to will boost squad depth,  the starting 11 will be weaker; as it stands we are potentially going into a champions league campaign without the two players who were the heartbeat of the side in getting there, because Kamara isn't going to be back anytime soon. 

[Teale's 'tache]

4 minutes ago, sne said:

Fascinating kinda reversed situation to when our injured players becomes better and better the longer they stay injured. At this rate by the time Luiz is sold he'll be labeled as a poor mans Ashley Westwood who was only ever rated because of his fancy foreign name. 

I think different people just find different ways to cope, in this case, it's like when someone breaks up with you suddenly you never loved them any way kind of deal...

 

[MrBlack]

24 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Surprised Youri's progressive carries are that low but pretty much in line with what I'd expected. Neither perform masses of defensive actions, Youri does more passing, Luiz does more carrying.

I feel like there's not a whole lot there that screams we'll fall apart without Luiz. We have no replacement options for Watkins or Martinez, we fell apart with Pau, and there are far more pressing gaps to fill than Luiz if he is sold in a swap for McKennie and SI-J.

Hope he stays and we can fund our summer business with Cash, Duran and Moreno sales, but if we can't then it's the nature of our current situation. 

Edited June 13 by MrBlack

[LondonLax]

13 minutes ago, andym said:

I'm not sure where this myth that his form fell off a cliff for a large part of the second half of the season, with an ever earlier start time that now appears to be christmas, comes from. Same with the 'he can't play without kamara' nonsense.

Yeah he wasn't as good as the start of the year, but given the ridiculously high level he and the rest of the team had been playing at, we were never going to keep that going with all the injuries starting to mount.

After Kamara's injury at the start of February we lost just 1 of the next 8 games in all competitions, taking us to the start of April. We won 5 of them and Luiz contributed with goals and assists.

After that is when the real drop off happened, as we hit the insane schedule with the euro conference quarters and semis; we played 12 games in 6 and half weeks. But he wasn't the only one to struggle then; not surprisingly, it was our most relied on players since Emery got here in McGinn and Konsa who also dropped off the most, they simply ran out of gas. Konsa in particular had an awful end to the season.

Yes we did have two really good performances without him at Arsenal and home to Bournemouth, but then we didn't have Kamara for those either, so get rid of him as well? Relying on two games without him where we did well, but ignoring other games where he'd been rested in cups and we'd looked clueless in progressing the ball, and ignoring that he's been the mainstay of the midfield throughout our crazy improvement under Emery (like Watkins, he's super reliable in terms of fitness, which shouldn't be overlooked), seems mad to me.

If he has to go because of finances etc, then so be it, but he is going to leave a huge hole in the side that will need replacing. While the midfield players we are being linked to will boost squad depth,  the starting 11 will be weaker; as it stands we are potentially going into a champions league campaign without the two players who were the heartbeat of the side in getting there, because Kamara isn't going to be back anytime soon. 

I don’t think it’s so much that his form fell off a cliff (though he did look knackered right at the end). It’s more that he was asked to do a role to help out the team which doesn’t play to his strengths. 

Play him as a 6, even in a double pivot, and he’ll ‘do a job’ but play him as an 8 and watch him glide around the pitch like he has the ball on a string. 

Edited June 13 by LondonLax

[HKP90]

6 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Surprised Youri's progressive carries are that low but pretty much in line with what I'd expected. Neither perform masses of defensive actions, Youri does more passing, Luiz does more carrying.

I feel like there's not a whole lot there that screams we'll fall apart without Luiz. We have no replacement options for Watkins or Martinez, we fell apart with Pau, and there are far more pressing gaps to fill that Luiz of he is sold in a swap for McKennie and SI-J.

Hope he stays and we can fund our summer business with Cash, Duran and Moreno sales, but if we can't then it's the nature of our current situation. 

TBH that sort of tallies with my perception of Youri. He usually works the ball, and tries low% defence splitting passes which are sometimes devastating. That has never really been Doug's game (although he can pull off the odd outside foot 40 yarder), he drifts forward, lays it off, and lurks on the edge of the 18 yard box so when it breaks to him, he can either burst forward, recycle the ball, or let off a screamer. 

[CVByrne]

10 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Surprised Youri's progressive carries are that low but pretty much in line with what I'd expected. Neither perform masses of defensive actions, Youri does more passing, Luiz does more carrying.

I feel like there's not a whole lot there that screams we'll fall apart without Luiz. We have no replacement options for Watkins or Martinez, we fell apart with Pau, and there are far more pressing gaps to fill than Luiz if he is sold in a swap for McKennie and SI-J.

Hope he stays and we can fund our summer business with Cash, Duran and Moreno sales, but if we can't then it's the nature of our current situation. 

I'm not he played a lot further up the pitch as s/s where he was a receiver of passes and then finding others with key passes. To get high numbers for carriers you need to be further back or wide. There's no space to carry the ball when you receive it centrally high up the pitch. 

[HKP90]

1 minute ago, CVByrne said:

I'm not he played a lot further up the pitch as s/s where he was a receiver of passes and then finding others with key passes. To get high numbers for carriers you need to be further back or wide. There's no space to carry the ball when you receive it centrally high up the pitch. 

That's also a good point. 

[MrBlack]

3 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I'm not he played a lot further up the pitch as s/s where he was a receiver of passes and then finding others with key passes. To get high numbers for carriers you need to be further back or wide. There's no space to carry the ball when you receive it centrally high up the pitch. 

Yeah, but I still expected them to be slightly higher.  I'm sure he has the capability to carry the ball if played deeper anyway.

I'm choosing an optimistic outlook on this,  so going to wilfully ignore the doubts about our ability to cope without Luiz. Enough bad news around that I'll look on the positive side for this one.

Not to mention the fact that Monchi and Emery know what they're doing.

[CVByrne]

37 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Yeah, but I still expected them to be slightly higher.  I'm sure he has the capability to carry the ball if played deeper anyway.

I'm choosing an optimistic outlook on this,  so going to wilfully ignore the doubts about our ability to cope without Luiz. Enough bad news around that I'll look on the positive side for this one.

Not to mention the fact that Monchi and Emery know what they're doing.

I think Tielemans will be our main replacement for Luiz. Buendia is back to take the s/s role Tielemans played often. Barkley in as depth. 

I really don't think Tielemans got enough credit for how good he was last season from City game onwards. Especially when he was playing with McGinn in CM he was excellent 

[david-avfc]

1 hour ago, duke313 said:

Tielemans is a great player at certain things but I don’t think he’s as good as Luiz as an all round player. There’s no doubt Tielemans is the best forward passer in the squad and therefore he’s a great player to use tactically, but I’m not quite convinced I’ve seen enough from him to be confident he can replace Luiz as a guy who is a key player in every game and plays virtually every minute available 

[BigJim]

Those stats reveal a huge difference in both passing and defensive contributions when you consider Luiz was on the pitch for nearly twice as many minutes. Minute for minute Youri played more than twice as many key passes and won about 50% more duels.

It's only really in carrying where Doug outscores Youri.

 

Edited June 13 by BigJim

[duke313]

3 minutes ago, BigJim said:

Those stats reveal a huge difference in both passing and defensive contributions when you consider Luiz was on the pitch for nearly twice as many minutes. Minute for minute Youri played more than twice as many key passes and won about 50% more duels.

It's only really in carrying where Doug outscores Youri.

 

Barkley and McKennie's carries are better than Dougs, with those two and Tielemans we can re-create Luiz in the aggregate 

[BigJim]

2 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Barkley and McKennie's carries are better than Dougs, with those two and Tielemans we can re-create Luiz in the aggregate 

As long as we can field 12 players we should be OK then

[LondonLax]

6 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Barkley and McKennie's carries are better than Dougs, with those two and Tielemans we can re-create Luiz in the aggregate 

Christian, is that you?

[WakefieldVillan]

1 hour ago, andym said:

I'm not sure where this myth that his form fell off a cliff for a large part of the second half of the season, with an ever earlier start time that now appears to be christmas, comes from. Same with the 'he can't play without kamara' nonsense.

 

I don't think it is a myth though.

From the 3rd April, his performances to the end of the season;

Man City (A) Lost 4-1 - Poor. Yellow card.

Brentford (H) Drew 3-3 Average. Yellow card.

Lille (H) Won 2-1 Average.

Arsenal (A) Won 0-2. Didn't play. Absolutely brilliant second half from us, dominating the ball/game.

Lille (A) Lost 2-1. Poor. Scored a cool penalty.

Bournemouth (H) Won 3-1. Decent team performance - No Luiz.

Chelsea (H) Drew 2-2. Dispossed for first goal which swung the game. Yellow card. Poor.

Olympiakos (H) Lost 2-4. Less said about this one the better really. But one of the worst individual performances I have seen. Not just the missed pen / conceding a pen. 

Brighton (A) Lost 1-0. Poor. The whole team never laid a glove on Brighton.

Olympiakos (A) Lost 2-0 See above - but add in another Yellow Card.

Liverpool (H) Drew 3-3. Came off after 80 mins at 1-3. Chambers made more of an impact in 10+ mins. 

Palace (A) Lost 5-0. To be fair, they all were at the beach then. One more Yellow Card for good luck. 

 

That's 12 matches - we won 3, 2 without him. 5 yellow cards too, which is either down to sloppiness / tiredness or petulance. 

Now don't get me wrong, I like him, I want him to stay, someone could post 12 games from earlier in the season, where he was scoring goals, playing well, I mean the pass for Watkins at bramall Lane was the pass of the century, let alone season, so I get that, but his form like the rest of the team notably dipped. He definitely missed Kamara, and he definitely suits playing in the "8" not the "6". My overall take is that when things are going well for the team, he looks class, he's got something "brazilian" about him, but when things get a bit ugly, I think he goes missing (occasionally).

 

[striker]

On 11/06/2024 at 19:37, Mark Albrighton said:

What, that Villa would have him valued at around £60m (with just two years left on his contract) and that a club like Juventus are the ones willing to meet that valuation?

Yeah that really backs up your assertion that he’s not particularly up to it. Solid reasoning.

Yet as far as we know no-one from the Prem has come in for him which is rated the best league about.

I think that doesn't do my reasoning any harm really.

He's vastly overrated on here but seemingly not by Emery or other Premiership managers.

[Steero113]

3 minutes ago, striker said:

Yet as far as we know no-one from the Prem has come in for him which is rated the best league about.

I think that doesn't do my reasoning any harm really.

He's vastly overrated on here but seemingly not by Emery or other Premiership managers.

Except Pep and Arteta. 

F**king nobodies. 

[sharkyvilla]

I'd say we had two really good (maybe one of them great) central midfield partnerships last season.  Kamara and Doug helped us keep up title-chasing pace, then McGinn and Tielemans showed in the brief period they played together that they had a really good balance.  When the personnel were chopped and changed about I don't think the other combinations worked.  I think it was largely because only Kamara is a defensive midfielder and the other 3 are more offensive minded.  Doug was the one who got shifted and played virtually every minute and did his best.  McGinn and Tielemans were just different enough to each other yet blended well, albeit it was a small sample and Tielemans got injured when they may have had a run together.  If it was me I'd choose an Onana-type over a Gallagher if we can spend on a new first team midfielder, along with Barkley to cover Tielemans and McKennie to cover McGinn.