Douglas Luiz

[sparrow1988]

Just now, MotoMkali said:

I'd prefer if that supposed desire for the cause actually translated to any actual in game effort. 

Flew into 2 tackles in the first two minutes don’t ya know?

[Delphinho123]

McGinn and Luiz aren’t good enough in the positions they both play to progress us up the table. Luiz isn’t a DM and McGinn isn’t this mad, inverted right back he’s been asked to play. 

If Luiz played as an 8 and McGinn played either as an 8 or one of the 10’s further up the field, they may be effective.

Quality and ability aside for a moment, you can’t judge some of these players in the mad system they’re operating within.

[TRO]

On 18/02/2022 at 17:46, OutByEaster? said:

In our five, we have two AM and three CM. The AM are required to disrupt the opposition playing out through midfield, the other three to stop cross and players through the middle. In those CM positions we have two with distinct qualities; the running power of Ramsey and the passing ability of Luiz and one who is a bit of an all rounder in McGinn.  Off the ball, all three of those players have defensive responsibilities - we don't play with one CDM.

perhaps, there lies the problem.

[IrishVilla10]

1 hour ago, MotoMkali said:

I'd prefer if that supposed desire for the cause actually translated to any actual in game effort. 

I didn’t get to watch the game today but I’ve never had reason to doubt McGinns effort?

[Tom13]

1 hour ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Despite his limitations which have become more clear recently, Mcginn at least shows frustration and desire for the cause 

Luiz is naturally quite reserved on the pitch, but shows plenty of desire.

[MotoMkali]

17 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said:

I didn’t get to watch the game today but I’ve never had reason to doubt McGinns effort?

Well you should. Because he rarely tracks back. Ball watches, doesn't move to receive the ball, doesn't press with the team, gives away lazy fouls when he could win the ball with a little bit of effort etc.

He's the epitome of a player who tricks fans into thinking he works hard because he puts effort into highlight plays like 60 yard presses instead of just consistently doing the little things that would make our team far more effective. 

[OutByEaster?]

13 hours ago, TRO said:

perhaps, there lies the problem.

How so @TRO?

 

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

How so @TRO?

 

You have to bear in mind, its just my opinion.....and I am not expecting you to agree.

For me the midfield is imbalanced and certain jobs go amiss....its part of the view that we are easy to play against, but only partly, abeit a big part.

They may have defensive responsibities, but their abilty to execute them is subjective.....I happen to think they leave us short, in the main, because they do not possess the natural nose for stopping the opposition, it not in the DNA.

They might be good individual players, but together the blend is wrong.

as an example.....Nobby Stiles wasn't one of the best players in England, but he did a job in helping us win the coveted prize......Des Bremner was no a house hold name, but his work was inavaluable to us and created the necessary blend.

We are an imbalanced squad....with far more attacking talent, than defensive, the problem is the opposition know this and negate it.....with our lack of players to help us nullify them.

SG has a really diificult task IMO.

 

[OutByEaster?]

Just now, TRO said:

You have to bear in mind, its just my opinion.....and I am not expecting you to agree.

For me the midfield is imbalanced and certain jobs go amiss....

I absolutely agree with you on this - our midfield imbalance is killing us - I think where I disagree is that the problem is primarily about the characteristics of the players.

Quote

 

They may have defensive responsibities, but their abilty to execute them is subjective.....I happen to think they leave us short, in the main, because they do not possess the natural nose for stopping the opposition, it not in the DNA.

 

I think they leave us short to a large extent because of the way they're being asked to play - when we have the ball, we're very often a 2-3-2-3 with the centrebacks holding, then Ramsey covering at right back, McGinn covering left back and Luiz in midfield - the two tens then occupy the middle of the park and look to play in the front three (Digne, Ings and Cash yesterday) either with balls into the corner or through balls.

That leaves our midfield line with two issues - firstly they're spread very wide across the pitch and secondly, neither Ramsey or McGinn are naturally full backs. 

I think we need to find a way to narrow this group - to have them closer together in the middle of the park - that will bring us a lot more solidity and enable them to defend better and keep us solid.

Quote

 

They might be good individual players, but together the blend is wrong.

 

Entirely correct. At the moment - we have forward minded midfielders who spend much of the game playing full back and a good passing midfielder having to cover about half of the pitch on his own. Doug isn't by nature a destroyer or a defender - I think that's fine to an extent as the system in theory suggests that the line of three are all there to protect the back four - it's a three where one has a dogged attitude, one has running power and one has excellent passing ability.

But then we play the system in a way that takes McGinn and Ramsey out of the midfield and leaves Luiz exposed - it's the evacuation of midfield that leaves the gaps.

Quote

We are an imbalanced squad....with far more attacking talent, than defensive, the problem is the opposition know this and negate it.....with our lack of players to help us nullify them.

SG has a really diificult task IMO.

We are a little bit unbalanced, yep with more attacking talent than defensive - the problem is that we seem to be setting up in a way that's almost exactly designed to expose that lack of balance in our midfield - players that might be able to defend, like Digne and Cash, spend much of their time up front and players that might be able to stiffen the midfield, like McGinn and Ramsey, spend much of their time at full back - meanwhile, we don't score because creative gems like Buendia and Coutinho are playing deeper than you'd like because there's a massive hole behind them where the midfield have gone to play fullback.

SG is making the job very, very tough for himself with his faith in this system - it might well be that it worked in Scotland because Rangers were simply a lot better than everyone else - but right now, we could do with our fullbacks pulling back thirty yards so that we can re-populate our midfield and free up our creative players. 

For me, it doesn't matter who you pick in our current system if you're going to play them in roles they're not suited for. We have players that, if better arranged could perform better and bring us better results.

The manager needs to be brave enough to have a good look at what he's doing.

[SuffolkVillan]

50 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I absolutely agree with you on this - our midfield imbalance is killing us - I think where I disagree is that the problem is primarily about the characteristics of the players.

I think they leave us short to a large extent because of the way they're being asked to play - when we have the ball, we're very often a 2-3-2-3 with the centrebacks holding, then Ramsey covering at right back, McGinn covering left back and Luiz in midfield - the two tens then occupy the middle of the park and look to play in the front three (Digne, Ings and Cash yesterday) either with balls into the corner or through balls.

That leaves our midfield line with two issues - firstly they're spread very wide across the pitch and secondly, neither Ramsey or McGinn are naturally full backs. 

I think we need to find a way to narrow this group - to have them closer together in the middle of the park - that will bring us a lot more solidity and enable them to defend better and keep us solid.

Entirely correct. At the moment - we have forward minded midfielders who spend much of the game playing full back and a good passing midfielder having to cover about half of the pitch on his own. Doug isn't by nature a destroyer or a defender - I think that's fine to an extent as the system in theory suggests that the line of three are all there to protect the back four - it's a three where one has a dogged attitude, one has running power and one has excellent passing ability.

But then we play the system in a way that takes McGinn and Ramsey out of the midfield and leaves Luiz exposed - it's the evacuation of midfield that leaves the gaps.

We are a little bit unbalanced, yep with more attacking talent than defensive - the problem is that we seem to be setting up in a way that's almost exactly designed to expose that lack of balance in our midfield - players that might be able to defend, like Digne and Cash, spend much of their time up front and players that might be able to stiffen the midfield, like McGinn and Ramsey, spend much of their time at full back - meanwhile, we don't score because creative gems like Buendia and Coutinho are playing deeper than you'd like because there's a massive hole behind them where the midfield have gone to play fullback.

SG is making the job very, very tough for himself with his faith in this system - it might well be that it worked in Scotland because Rangers were simply a lot better than everyone else - but right now, we could do with our fullbacks pulling back thirty yards so that we can re-populate our midfield and free up our creative players. 

For me, it doesn't matter who you pick in our current system if you're going to play them in roles they're not suited for. We have players that, if better arranged could perform better and bring us better results.

The manager needs to be brave enough to have a good look at what he's doing.

Perfect analysis which the vast majority on here can agree with. Lets hope SG is man enough to fix it

[MrBlack]

Scapegoat. Whilst I don't think he's an exceptional DM, we only conceded after he left the pitch and our shape went to pot.

McGinn should have been the player taken off, and the defensive structure would have remained solid.

He isn't great, but he's the best we have in that role until Nakamba is fit. Or we buy a replacement

I'd play him further forward for a run after Nakamba is fit, so that he gets rewarded for carrying the can for the rest of our midfield that don't seem capable of filling in when they're supposed to. I also think he'd do a better job than McGinn in that role, at least on current form.

[AV82]

The whole tweet thread is brilliant but this particular post aimed at Douglas shows just how much we need a proper DM. See the second post where he poorly deals with Sarr on the counter which opens up an opportunity, not helped by the fact that McGinn is not a RB but has to cover there since Cash is up at RW. If Douglas takes a yellow at the least or shows him down the line that entire counter attack (which ultimately led to a shot on goal) is thwarted.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by AV82

[PaulC]

3 minutes ago, AV82 said:

The whole tweet thread is brilliant but this particular post aimed at Douglas shows just how much we need a proper DM. See the second post where he poorly deals with Sarr on the counter which opens up an opportunity, not helped by the fact that McGinn is not a RB but has to cover there since Cash is up at RW. If Douglas takes a yellow at the least or shows him down the line that entire counter attack (which ultimately led to a shot on goal) is thwarted.

 

Yes if he cant takle him foul him and take one for the team. We have to have a more defensive minded no.6 who can cover as one of the three cbs when the fullbacks are caught up field. Chambers is the one that can do that.

[AV82]

6 minutes ago, PaulC said:

Yes if he cant takle him foul him and take one for the team. We have to have a more defensive minded no.6 who can cover as one of the three cbs when the fullbacks are caught up field. Chambers is the one that can do that.

 Surely this is coachable? It's simple stuff when defending on the counter which is exactly what Gerrard said we were expecting from Watford.

[VillaChris]

Luiz has done plenty of tactical fouls in his time for us, you can tell he's been coached by Guardiola for spells.

 

I'd play Chambers at DM on Saturday anyway. Would be amazed if Konsa dosen't come straight back in.

[PaulC]

Just now, VillaChris said:

Luiz has done plenty of tactical fouls in his time for us, you can tell he's been coached by Guardiola for spells.

 

I'd play Chambers at DM on Saturday anyway. Would be amazed if Konsa dosen't come straight back in.

Yes our system is so overloaded attacking wise with two wing backs in a back 4 which doesnt help Ramsey who is a goal scoring threat, we need the extra cover like Nakamba gave us. I think Chambers can do that job. Luiz has to come out of the team and maybe McGinn too. I'd be shocked if he starts on saturday.

[duke313]

1 minute ago, PaulC said:

Yes our system is so overloaded attacking wise with two wing backs in a back 4 which doesnt help Ramsey who is a goal scoring threat, we need the extra cover like Nakamba gave us. I think Chambers can do that job. Luiz has to come out of the team and maybe McGinn too. I'd be shocked if he starts on saturday.

Prepare to be shocked come Saturday.  We were all expecting these changes to come into play vs. Watford, and the only change we got was Ings for Watkins.

[VillaParkAvenue]

20 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Prepare to be shocked come Saturday.  We were all expecting these changes to come into play vs. Watford, and the only change we got was Ings for Watkins.

My guess is Gerrard would like to make changes, but doesn’t think he can because of the available players. Chambers hasn’t played in midfield for three years and may not even want to, Iroegbunam hasn’t played one minute off the bench yet, and regarding Sanson I suspect Gerrard carries a grudge — Sanson has also never played as a single 6 as far as I know, which would mean he could only replace McGinn (or Ramsey).

[TRO]

On 20/02/2022 at 13:05, OutByEaster? said:

I absolutely agree with you on this - our midfield imbalance is killing us - I think where I disagree is that the problem is primarily about the characteristics of the players.

I think they leave us short to a large extent because of the way they're being asked to play - when we have the ball, we're very often a 2-3-2-3 with the centrebacks holding, then Ramsey covering at right back, McGinn covering left back and Luiz in midfield - the two tens then occupy the middle of the park and look to play in the front three (Digne, Ings and Cash yesterday) either with balls into the corner or through balls.

That leaves our midfield line with two issues - firstly they're spread very wide across the pitch and secondly, neither Ramsey or McGinn are naturally full backs. 

I think we need to find a way to narrow this group - to have them closer together in the middle of the park - that will bring us a lot more solidity and enable them to defend better and keep us solid.

Entirely correct. At the moment - we have forward minded midfielders who spend much of the game playing full back and a good passing midfielder having to cover about half of the pitch on his own. Doug isn't by nature a destroyer or a defender - I think that's fine to an extent as the system in theory suggests that the line of three are all there to protect the back four - it's a three where one has a dogged attitude, one has running power and one has excellent passing ability.

But then we play the system in a way that takes McGinn and Ramsey out of the midfield and leaves Luiz exposed - it's the evacuation of midfield that leaves the gaps.

We are a little bit unbalanced, yep with more attacking talent than defensive - the problem is that we seem to be setting up in a way that's almost exactly designed to expose that lack of balance in our midfield - players that might be able to defend, like Digne and Cash, spend much of their time up front and players that might be able to stiffen the midfield, like McGinn and Ramsey, spend much of their time at full back - meanwhile, we don't score because creative gems like Buendia and Coutinho are playing deeper than you'd like because there's a massive hole behind them where the midfield have gone to play fullback.

SG is making the job very, very tough for himself with his faith in this system - it might well be that it worked in Scotland because Rangers were simply a lot better than everyone else - but right now, we could do with our fullbacks pulling back thirty yards so that we can re-populate our midfield and free up our creative players. 

For me, it doesn't matter who you pick in our current system if you're going to play them in roles they're not suited for. We have players that, if better arranged could perform better and bring us better results.

The manager needs to be brave enough to have a good look at what he's doing.

OBE....excellent response, and I whole heartedly agree with you.

I think Dean had and Steve are finding it difficult to find a formation, due in the main to the imbalance in the squad....I believe the imbalance to be a combination of Attributes and characteristics, the dynamics are flat......You only have to look at other clubs like Wolves, Leicester, West Ham to see more  variety and more distinction in their squads.....

I believe Digne and Coutinho while being fabulous footballing talent has partly exacerbated our issues......but, would I have signed them, how could you not, such fine talent.

I do believe playing the full backs as wing backs is a mistake in this squad, and the 2 ,10's leave us a bit narrow.....but when the balance in attributes is not there, you are always "robbing Peter to pay Paul" in departments.....we have seen 2 quite different approaches in terms of formation from Dean and Steve and yet some of our faults are still there......I think the issue is too many players the same, in unison with a resulting systems issue....they both chopped and changed to find a solution.

Quite frankly, whatever it is...... I guess we all want to see a solution, the danger in these situations is though, throwing the baby out with the bath water, blaming players who are not the main fault......He wants to make changes, he may change faces, but he can't change  attributes.

I really don't know the answer, If I'm honest.....but I have kinda seen this before in the past.

However, In the summer, I hope we take a hard look at the type of players we are signing and improve the balance of the side.....In the meantime, we just need to try and hang on in there.

 

 

[NeilS]

3 hours ago, AV82 said:

The whole tweet thread is brilliant but this particular post aimed at Douglas shows just how much we need a proper DM. See the second post where he poorly deals with Sarr on the counter which opens up an opportunity, not helped by the fact that McGinn is not a RB but has to cover there since Cash is up at RW. If Douglas takes a yellow at the least or shows him down the line that entire counter attack (which ultimately led to a shot on goal) is thwarted.

 

Yes, I was shouting for Douglas Luiz to pull him down on that second incident on 55 mins. My girlfriend asked what I meant, and I said sometimes you need to commit a foul and take a yellow card in a non dangerous situation for the team. I was shocked he let him carry on running at the defence when it was 4 on 4. I imagine that is why Gerrard subbed him off shortly after that.