JPJCB Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 2 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: I've said this in the past as well mate. If he is to be the " Deep Lying playmaker " Pirlo esque as argued, he needs more protection around him. He simply isn't an effective lone Premier league CDM by any stretch of the imagination. If he did go to another team in the league and do better, it would probably because those teams have the players and system required around. When it comes to our needs in the area and system, he's simply not. He's much better when Nakamba is in as well. Wasn't one of his best games this season, when Nakamba was in the side, and he was a bit more advanced? In my opinion, his talents are being totally wasted in the role people are trying to shoehorn him into. All of this is true but this (and other posts in this thread) imply that we should build our entire midfield around Luiz when his talent simply doesn’t warrant it. If we were to play a destroyer DM next to luiz with Ramsey/someone else ahead of them more advanced then we’d be playing an entirely different system to what gerrard wants to play. We’d either need to play coutinho as the 10 (in which case drop Ramsey who’s been our best CM this season) or play coutinho much wider on the left than he likes to play to accommodate the changed midfield shape. Buendia would have also have to play wider which he’s not suited to. Now don’t get me wrong, this might be worth it if Luiz were genuinely one of our best players and worth building the team around. But I’ve seen no evidence to suggest he’s anywhere near that level. With gerrards system which inherently tries to get the best out of two narrow tens (incidentally coutinho and buendia are very very well suited to these roles) you need one destroyer DM and two very energetic number 8s to cover the fullbacks when they go wide and generally hustle the opposition. Luiz isn’t strong enough defensively to be the destroyer and he’s not got enough energy/pace to be a top number 8. He’s surplus to requirements if my view. I’m sure some posters are right that he’ll probs do better somewhere else. But I’ve not seen any evidence to suggest he’ll be one of the top deep lying playmakers in the PL. he’s probs best off moving abroad to a slower/less physical league tbh 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, VillaParkAvenue said: Lots of teams play with a double pivot. Kante usually plays with Jorginho, Rice and Phillips for England, Kimmich and Goretzka are maybe the best doing it at Bayern, and so on. Villa use a single pivot and our midfield three is rather weighted towards attack, if you compare to many other teams. I get that. which is a part of my concern.....but players at the level we are aspiring to, should be able to do both.....its the lesser players in the lower echelons of the league that are more likely to be limited. Edited February 18, 2022 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, duke313 said: It was for Pirlo, who best describes the role of deep playmaker. He had players around him that did the tackling for him. Having players like Viera, Keane etc who could tackle AND play a Hollywood pass would be great, we don't have that currently. but there lies the essence of the debate...when you have other players in your team doing for you, what your counterparts in others teams have to do, you create a precedence.....Pirlo is a relative exception. Dougie has Casemiro doing it for him in the Brazil team.....so mentioning Brazil, like some do, is a tad misleading. Its like the false 9 was used by Michael Laudrup and Lionel Messi, but these players were/are exceptional.....Alfedo Di Stefano all them years ago could play anywhere. and today Firmino plays False 9. When you have players with exceptional talent and press all the buttons for natural attributes, they can play anywhere, that then becomes difficult to classify and hold down to specific roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 37 minutes ago, TRO said: but there lies the essence of the debate...when you have other players in your team doing for you, what your counterparts in others teams have to do, you create a precedence.....Pirlo is a relative exception. Dougie has Casemiro doing it for him in the Brazil team.....so mentioning Brazil, like some do, is a tad misleading. Its like the false 9 was used by Michael Laudrup and Lionel Messi, but these players were/are exceptional.....Alfedo Di Stefano all them years ago could play anywhere. and today Firmino plays False 9. When you have players with exceptional talent and press all the buttons for natural attributes, they can play anywhere, that then becomes difficult to classify and hold down to specific roles. I'm sure you have a point, but i've no idea what it is with talk of false 9's and Alfredo Di Stefano. Back to DL, he's not the complete midfielder you'd like us to have that can do everything. From what we've seen of him this season, he's not very good at defending even though he's been playing as a DM. And until the transfer window opens again, we can't replace him with a DM that can do everything. So, he should be either dropped completely or paired with a midfielder who is better at breaking up play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 10 minutes ago, duke313 said: I'm sure you have a point, but i've no idea what it is with talk of false 9's and Alfredo Di Stefano. Back to DL, he's not the complete midfielder you'd like us to have that can do everything. From what we've seen of him this season, he's not very good at defending even though he's been playing as a DM. And until the transfer window opens again, we can't replace him with a DM that can do everything. So, he should be either dropped completely or paired with a midfielder who is better at breaking up play. I think he's a good defender tbh. His positioning is usually very good and that's one of the most important factors - the issue would be that he's not a big bruiser and so can't be expected to win all the physical battles when we play some shithouse team like Leeds. Nakamba is a littler more combative but doesn't really solve that problem either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbertoAVFC Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 Really amuses me that there are people in this thread comparing Douglas Luiz to Gordan Cowans If you could caricature a fanbase... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 39 minutes ago, duke313 said: I'm sure you have a point, but i've no idea what it is with talk of false 9's and Alfredo Di Stefano. Back to DL, he's not the complete midfielder you'd like us to have that can do everything. From what we've seen of him this season, he's not very good at defending even though he's been playing as a DM. And until the transfer window opens again, we can't replace him with a DM that can do everything. So, he should be either dropped completely or paired with a midfielder who is better at breaking up play. I was trying to explain how folk, see various positions differently.....perhaps my analogy, doesn't suit all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 5 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: I've said this in the past as well mate. If he is to be the " Deep Lying playmaker " Pirlo esque as argued, he needs more protection around him. He simply isn't an effective lone Premier league CDM by any stretch of the imagination. If he did go to another team in the league and do better, it would probably because those teams have the players and system required around. When it comes to our needs in the area and system, he's simply not. He's much better when Nakamba is in as well. Wasn't one of his best games this season, when Nakamba was in the side, and he was a bit more advanced? In my opinion, his talents are being totally wasted in the role people are trying to shoehorn him into. spot on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 18, 2022 Moderator Share Posted February 18, 2022 5 hours ago, TRO said: in a 3 my thinking is a CDM- CM- AM.....and thats it......all this DLP is ballony. In our five, we have two AM and three CM. The AM are required to disrupt the opposition playing out through midfield, the other three to stop cross and players through the middle. In those CM positions we have two with distinct qualities; the running power of Ramsey and the passing ability of Luiz and one who is a bit of an all rounder in McGinn. Off the ball, all three of those players have defensive responsibilities - we don't play with one CDM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said: In our five, we have two AM and three CM. The AM are required to disrupt the opposition playing out through midfield, the other three to stop cross and players through the middle. In those CM positions we have two with distinct qualities; the running power of Ramsey and the passing ability of Luiz and one who is a bit of an all rounder in McGinn. Off the ball, all three of those players have defensive responsibilities - we don't play with one CDM. Yes well its not working so something needs to change 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 18, 2022 Moderator Share Posted February 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, PaulC said: Yes well its not working so something needs to change Yep, and therein lies the big challenge - there are three things that we can do; change the personnel, keep the personnel and try to get more out of them or change the system. I think we all have our own ideas of which will be most effective. From my perspective I certainly don't think that Douglas Luiz's performances have been our largest concern in recent games, not by a long chalk - against Newcastle I thought he was our best player in the first half and in our best three over the course of the game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said: Yep, and therein lies the big challenge - there are three things that we can do; change the personnel, keep the personnel and try to get more out of them or change the system. I think the time has come for ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaParkAvenue Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 2 hours ago, PaulC said: I think the time has come for ... The manager already? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 I think Dougie is taking a lot of flak for (a) Nakamba being injured, and (b) us not signing a replacement for Nakamba. IMO Dougie is a very good DLP / CM who's being asked to play as an out-and-out DM in Gerrard's system - which is basically 2-1-4-2-1: -----CB----CB---- --------DM------- RB--CM-----CM--LB ----10-----10---- --------CF------- That leaves the DM very exposed, and it rewards Nakamba's profile (very busy, destructive, defensively oriented) more than Dougie's (decent defensively, but wants possession). Do we want a good DLP in the squad? I think we definitely do. Is Dougie a good DLP? IMO yes. 4-2-3-1 with the 2 being a DM and a DLP is a pretty standard setup, and if we got rid of Dougie who would we play in that role? McGinn is awful there. I also think in a lot of games Dougie can play as single pivot (as he proved in our relegation battle when we first came up), but it needs more discipline from the CMs and attacking midfielders to not leave big gaps to drive into. The problem he's having at the moment is Coutinho isn't doing a lot of defensive work, while Digne is pushing very high, and so we look very open down our left. We need to stop comparing Dougie to these destroyer DMs and ask how he can be more like the DLP types we want him to be long term - Busquets, Pirlo, etc. What is missing from his game at the moment that's stopping him from getting there? For me, it's three things: work rate, nastiness and consistency. His work rate is fine, but to be a top top player, he needs to improve his fitness so he's really covering a lot of ground. Nastiness... he needs to get better at putting in big tackles and fouls where the situation merits it (his physicality is definitely improving though). And consistency... he needs to stop having these games where his passing radar is off. We all know that he has the technique and vision to be a very good passer. But I've seen enough from him over the last few seasons to suggest he could fix all of this. I'm not saying we shouldn't sign other players in the same position, but I think selling him would be a huge mistake, unless someone came in with a massive offer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 Maybe he's not the only reason as to why we suck atm? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 1 minute ago, sne said: Maybe he's not the only reason as to why we suck atm? far from it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 him coming off was a huge mistake, his passing in the first half was very good 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Kuwabatake Sanjuro Posted February 19, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted February 19, 2022 Went completely missing for their goal. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aston_Villan4 Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 Just now, Zatman said: him coming off was a huge mistake, his passing in the first half was very good Should’ve been McGinn to come off. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV82 Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 Needs to play as an 8 or sit on the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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