MrBlack Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 (edited) If you'd read and understood what Sparrow1988 had said... you'd have seen he has never suggested Wesley is better then Watkins. He just said that for one specific metric, that effectively defines your ability to put away chances, Wesley demonstrated himself to be better than Watkins has been over the course of two top flight seasons. Watkins presses more, creates more chances for others, creates more chances for himself, and gets himself into a position to have a chance better, which of course makes him a better all round striker.... but his finishing of chances is pretty poor. And Wesley's was slightly less poor. Edited June 8, 2022 by MrBlack 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said: Ok but you’ll never be a good finisher if you don’t get into the right positions and do you won’t score many goals. The two go hand in hand surely. Most players considered good finishers are strikers that find the positions in the first place. I think it depends on your definition of finisher. If you mean the pure act of putting a chance away, then you can definitely be one without getting into those positions regularly. It wouldn't make you a very good striker. Which is exactly what was the case with Wesley. He rarely got into the right position, and when he did, we rarely had a player that could find him. Edited June 8, 2022 by MrBlack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 Just now, MrBlack said: If you'd read and understood what Sparrow1988 had said... you'd have seen he has never suggested Wesley is better then Watkins. He just said that for one specific metric, that effectively defines your ability to put away chanced, Wesley demonstrated himself to be better than Watkins has been over the course of two top flight seasons. Watkins presses more, creates more chances for others, creates more chances for himself, and gets himself into a position to have a chance better, which of course makes him a better all round striker.... but his finishing of chances is pretty poor. And Wesley's was slightly less poor. Right, but what I'm saying is, I am going to go by what I actually watched over that half season and say that whatever number has been coughed up, Wesley was simply not a better finisher than Watkins. This notion that you can plug in some numbers and what comes out is the gospel truth that cannot be challenged, even when it defies common sense, is one of the deepest annoyances of being a football fan today. You can get your number, but it ain't 'the truth'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 12 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: The only thing that's making anybody look sily is the claim that Wesley is even vaguely in the same league as Watkins. He isn't, which is why one is in the midst of what I think is clearly going to be a long career of top-flight football in England, while Wesley isn't. Obviously the injury played a part in that, but if anybody really wants to try to argue that Steven Gerrard would have watched that half-season of Wesley's and thought to himself, yeah, here's a guy I can build a top-flight strikeforce around, then it ain't me that's gonna look silly. We're talking about finishing and composure. Why are you changing the discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 7 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said: Ok but you’ll never be a good finisher if you don’t get into the right positions and do you won’t score many goals. The two go hand in hand surely. Most players considered good finishers are strikers that find the positions in the first place. I can’t think of a good finisher that doesn’t score lots of goals or a player that scores lots of goals but isn’t a good finisher. Hang on I’ve just thought of a player that scored plenty of goals but I didn’t think was a particularly good finisher. Tammy always seemed to need a lot of chances to score. However he kept finding good positions and racked up plenty of goals. So consider what I’ve just said as rubbish. I took up a good position but didn’t manage to finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 (edited) Wesley scored 5* goals for Villa, that’s a small sample size to draw any conclusions from about finishing ability. The eye test said sometimes looked like he could cope in the bottom half of the league before his injury and sometimes looked lost. Edited June 8, 2022 by a m ole 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishVilla10 Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 5 hours ago, sparrow1988 said: Of the 5, the ones that I have my doubts on are: the one against Arsenal - I don't see Ollie having the technique to make that finish where he nips in front of Luiz and directs it in the one against Norwich where the ball drops and the defender and keeper converge on him. There I see Watkins panicking under pressure and ends up taking too many touches, getting half fouled but not enough in it for a penalty in typical Watkins fashion. the one against Everton, I think Ollie would take a touch and the chance would be gone. If he didn't take a touch he would go for more power and end up not getting it in to the corner enough and Pickford would get a touch on it. I think you’re doing Ollie a huge disservice here. Three very basic goals. Watch ollies goal when we scored 3 against arsenal last season and it’s very similar to Wesley’s Everton goal. Wesley could barely strike a ball 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Right, but what I'm saying is, I am going to go by what I actually watched over that half season and say that whatever number has been coughed up, Wesley was simply not a better finisher than Watkins. This notion that you can plug in some numbers and what comes out is the gospel truth that cannot be challenged, even when it defies common sense, is one of the deepest annoyances of being a football fan today. You can get your number, but it ain't 'the truth'. That's fair enough. I'm not sure we saw enough of Wesley to draw a real conclusion, stats or otherwise. Yes, he looked poor generally. That highlights clip a few pages back is frankly embarrassing. But there are so many extenuating circumstances. Primarily that he was playing in a team full of incompetence. Very young, new country, first experience of English football, crippled before he could settle. But he did put away a higher percentage of his chances than Watkins has done in either of his seasons. Perhaps says more about how few chances he attempted but it is a fact. More examples of players having poor first seasons and going on to be established PL players than not. And aside from this, Watkins finishing has been poor (as backed up by the stats and the eyes test). He needs to improve this or we need to improve on him. Edited June 8, 2022 by MrBlack 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Zatman Posted June 8, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2022 43 minutes ago, a m ole said: Wesley scored 5* goals for Villa, that’s a small sample size to draw any conclusions from about finishing ability. The eye test said sometimes looked like he could cope in the bottom half of the league before his injury and sometimes looked lost. 5 in 21 in a new league, language, country and a team in a relegation battle thrown together that summer We will never know what would have become. Drogba got 10 in his first season in a superior team and similar criticisms were aimed at him especially that he was weak by looking for free kicks We will never know what might have happened. Sadly for us and Wesley 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted June 8, 2022 Author Share Posted June 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Zatman said: We will never know what might have happened. Sadly for us and Wesley. I do. He could hardly control or kick the ball and ran like a wounded giraffe. We would be releasing him on a free, Mee or no Mee. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaParkAvenue Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 4 minutes ago, Tomaszk said: I do. He could hardly control or kick the ball and ran like a wounded giraffe. We would be releasing him on a free, Mee or no Mee. Isn’t his one leg 2-3 inches shorter than the other? Quite impressive to have, or have had, a career in sport if that’s the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted June 8, 2022 Author Share Posted June 8, 2022 1 minute ago, VillaParkAvenue said: Isn’t his one leg 2-3 inches shorter than the other? Quite impressive to have, or have had, a career in sport if that’s the case. He certainly played like he did though. It's astonishing he made it all the way to the PL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 Why in 2022 are people acting like its impossible to come back from a bad injury? The fact he won't be anywhere near the premier league or any real decent league is not just down to his injury. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaParkAvenue Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 39 minutes ago, Tomaszk said: He certainly played like he did though. It's astonishing he made it all the way to the PL. It was 3 cm apparently, not 3 inches. But that’s why he walks with a slight limp. https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2019/jul/21/wesley-moraes-aston-villa-striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villa_Stateside Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 (edited) 40 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Why in 2022 are people acting like its impossible to come back from a bad injury? The fact he won't be anywhere near the premier league or any real decent league is not just down to his injury. His injury was near career ending as you can get. This wasn’t a just a normal ACL. ACL can still be career enders even though it’s becoming less common. Edited June 8, 2022 by Villa_Stateside 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 (edited) 54 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Why in 2022 are people acting like its impossible to come back from a bad injury? The fact he won't be anywhere near the premier league or any real decent league is not just down to his injury. Those injuries aren't exactly easy to come back from. Remember Jonathan Kodjia? Absolutely tore up the league in his first season then got injured and looked a shadow of himself ever since. Add in Wesley's other physical issues, and just the general heft of the big guy, I'd imagine it's quite the uphill battle to get back to anything close to what he was. Edited June 8, 2022 by Keyblade 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post gwi1890 Posted June 8, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2022 7 minutes ago, Keyblade said: Those injuries aren't exactly easy to come back from. Remember Jonathan Kodjia? Absolutely tore up the league in his first season then got injured and looked a shadow of himself ever since. Add in Wesley's other physical issues, and just the general heft of the big guy, I'd imagine it's quite the uphill battle to get back to anything close to what he was. unforgettable 6 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Villa_Stateside said: His injury was near career ending as you can get. This wasn’t a just a normal ACL. ACL can still be career enders even though it’s becoming less common. Also can’t tell what it must’ve been like for him being locked-down during Covid recovering from this … I will defend him as long as I post on here as it was reckless as hell challenge that basically separated his leg in two… Edited June 8, 2022 by thabucks 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulberto21 Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 Didn’t Wesley suffer a PCL rupture as well as the ACL or did I misread something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Keyblade Posted June 8, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2022 36 minutes ago, gwi1890 said: unforgettable Honestly one of my favorite Villa players ever, as short lived as it was. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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