Racism Part two

[Hobsons Choice]

51 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I wasn't. Like I said, I haven't seen it so can't comment. 

No, it was the wider you, not you in particular. Sorry.

[viivvaa66]

There are two views on race and culture:

You have the inclusion view, where the goal is to create melting pot, where each race and culture contribute and share and adopt impulses between races and cultures.

Then you have the purist view, where the goal is to keep races and cultures segregated to keep the race and cultures unchanged, to keep their originality. A big part of this is the concept of culture appropriation, to prevent any watering down of the purity.

I’m not saying one view is better or right, or that people with one view is racist or not. Still it puzzle me why one of the view have become so popular lately, especially on the left, since it originated on the far right.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

16 minutes ago, viivvaa66 said:

There are two views on race and culture:

You have the inclusion view, where the goal is to create melting pot, where each race and culture contribute and share and adopt impulses between races and cultures.

Then you have the purist view, where the goal is to keep races and cultures segregated to keep the race and cultures unchanged, to keep their originality. A big part of this is the concept of culture appropriation, to prevent any watering down of the purity.

I’m not saying one view is better or right, or that people with one view is racist or not. Still it puzzle me why one of the view have become so popular lately, especially on the left, since it originated on the far right.

You'd be shocked to know how many black people ( especially African Americans ) are on the other end, where they themselves want segregation and just hate white people, regardless.

The issue is, extremes create other extremes, as with many other issues today.

You open the road for extremism when you entertain everything being offensive or cancellable. Some people genuinely have mental issues and we allow them to push narrative's.

I often debate with black folks who, without realising it ( Or purposely so ) , they are creating the exact culture and movement they claim to hate.

Possibly a controversial take, but I feel you actually create even more racists when you move with pure aggression and hatred.

Making every white person feel like they should apologise for things purely for being white is where we are heading

The world is strange.

I'm hoping all of these extremes are just pendulum swings until we all find a middle.ground in the world.

Edited June 17, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[MotoMkali]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

To be fair I only use it as it's the shortest phrase I can think of to surmise in quickfire.

However yes you are correct, it's probably not fair to categorise people who probably have a wide range of views on different issues without context.

The last line sort of goes both ways though, not everyone who has a certain view on a certain issue is a " brexiter " or  " racist " for example.

I get why both examples would wind people up on either side of the aisle.

No but when 10 men sit at a table with a nazi. There are 11 nazis at the table. And certain issues, absolutely everyone who has certain opinions about it are bigots. 

[Follyfoot]

23 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Last post on the non footballing topic which shows the other side

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6535531/Roma-chief-Monchi-supports-Napoli-ace-Kalidou-Koulibaly-racism-row.html

Was he in blackface whilst delivering this message.

[Tomaszk]

It's very simple. Hate everyone equally.

[CVByrne]

I think there needs to come a point where people can differentiate a person being racist and a person being offensive. 

A friend of mine who's name is Usher dressed up as Usher the musician in 2004 for Halloween and did a partial black face. At the time it was mildly offensive and now it would be highly offensive.

At no point was it racist. But if we had social media and smart phones someone can add their own context to a photo. "Well it's 2023 and I am black so I'll explain to everyone what this is."

Before everyone's opinions had to be shared with millions online with the specific aim of getting recognition for those opinions by retweets. It was just people speaking to other people. 

..was, as in past tense.

We need Thanos to end half the population from existence. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by CVByrne

[TRO]

46 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You'd be shocked to know how many black people ( especially African Americans ) are on the other end, where they themselves want segregation and just hate white people, regardless.

The issue is, extremes create other extremes, as with many other issues today.

You open the road for extremism when you entertain everything being offensive or cancellable. Some people genuinely have mental issues and we allow them to push narrative's.

I often debate with black folks who, without realising it ( Or purposely so ) , they are creating the exact culture and movement they claim to hate.

Possibly a controversial take, but I feel you actually create even more racists when you move with pure aggression and hatred.

Making every white person feel like they should apologise for things purely for being white is where we are heading

The world is strange.

I'm hoping all of these extremes are just pendulum swings until we all find a middle.ground in the world.

Wow.....powerful stuff Shaun......very well articulated on a difficullt subject.

but I like your football comments too.

Lets talk Monchi-Football related.

Edited June 17, 2023 by TRO

[CVByrne]

In a world where the only way to know if someone is a woman or man is to ask them. As no longer is it a thing other people can know as it's how that person feels.

The same now goes for racism. It's not what you said or meant and it doesn't matter when it happened, or of it was offensive at the time, if we have a digital copy of it decades in the future. All that matters now is how other people feel about what you said or meant. 

All that matters now is how the population of the world feel about what other people say and do. It's down to each person to subjectively decide what other people's words and actions mean to them. Then pass judgement about how you feel.

Feeling are reality now. 

[wishywashy]

James Rushton wrote a piece about the whole Monchi racism discourse. It's very well put, imo. More on link

Quote

....When I see the image above, I wonder about Spain's very real issue with racism (without discouting the fact that such issues exist across the globe, including in the UK).

I don't know if you need it laid out - but why is Blackface bad?

The root argument against blackface is that it is dehumanising. It is used to ridicule and mock. It is sometimes used to 'honor' - sometimes - but that is RARELY the feeling felt by a non-white person who views blackface. A tradition that stemmed from one simple fact - white audiences did not want black people on the stage.

I do think of that when I think of how many Spanish authorities are simply unable to find 1 (one) black person to play the role of Balthasar....

 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by blandy
link crime fixed

[maqroll]

22 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said:

Before people condemn Monchi, take a bit of time to research the yearly celebration that concludes Christmas in Spain. It's called the "Cabalgata de los Reyes Magos", and is a much looked forward to celebration especially for the children.

The three Kings that are supposed to have visited the baby Jesus in the stable, make a procession through the streets given out copious amounts of sweets to the children. These Kings wear their historical robes and as "Balthasar" was a black man he is always portrayed with a black face. It is considered an honour to be asked to represent one of the Kings, and Spaniards would be dismayed to think that this is considered offensive by "far away football fans" who seem to have very little idea about their culture.

Monchi is a superb new 'signing' and this is what we should be discussing on this thread in my opinion. 

 

I suppose on a scale of Blackface Offensiveness, this might rank low, as the character is meant to represent an actual Black King, and it doesn't seem like it's done mockingly.

Contrast it to early 20th century American minstrel shows, which were designed to mock, degrade, humiliate and reinforce the racial heirarchy and odious ideas regarding "eugenics". 

Nonetheless, this is an awkward look in 2023, so hopefully our DEI department has a quiet word with our entire Spanish contingent about avoiding these pitfalls going forward. 

The sooner this gets put to bed, the better.

[Demitri_C]

I think there is a element of racism going on in my team at work. Our management team in our section of the nhs is all white chavvy people. We have had a black guy start with us over 12 months ago. He talks abit ghetto is a bit rowdy but absolutely nothing wrong with him as a person and his work ethic but because he is quite fearless and challenges them at times they trying to force him out. Ive gitten to know him and we become good mates (even if he is a manure fan)  At the last meeting in the office we had one of our directors give a presentation on RTT statistics  (it was boring as ****) but what the management slyly did was have a person in our trusts training team secretly record staff to see if everyone was paying attention. Thankfully he was but they were definitely trying to catch him out and use it against him. Every little episode he will do then come down on him like a ton of bricks yet there is people in my team who are much worse and they dont work yet they dont say a word to them as they are white.

The worst thing about it is if you want to complain about it you cant as all the management here are all mates. Even if you go to HR they dont do nothing. Even if someone is done for racism they rarely sack them just move somewhere else in nhs. Its **** pathetic we have to deal with this shit in this age.

[MaVilla]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You'd be shocked to know how many black people ( especially African Americans ) are on the other end, where they themselves want segregation and just hate white people, regardless.

The issue is, extremes create other extremes, as with many other issues today.

You open the road for extremism when you entertain everything being offensive or cancellable. Some people genuinely have mental issues and we allow them to push narrative's.

I often debate with black folks who, without realising it ( Or purposely so ) , they are creating the exact culture and movement they claim to hate.

Possibly a controversial take, but I feel you actually create even more racists when you move with pure aggression and hatred.

Making every white person feel like they should apologise for things purely for being white is where we are heading

The world is strange.

I'm hoping all of these extremes are just pendulum swings until we all find a middle.ground in the world.

Excellent post.

I honestly think the current desire to divide everyone by race, culture, belief etc, and have them turn against each other is ultimately divisive and will (and is) causing more problems than it purports to try and solve.

its weird how its gong i think, especially as if i look back to my own youth, the push was to try and see everyone for "who they are as a person", and not for the colour of their skin (or different culture, or different belief etc).

I agree with regard to your comment about finding a middle ground, because both the far left and far right of the argument are nuts imo, but for different reasons, ironically, the far left breeds the far right, and visa versa, we need to work back towards the middle.

I accept others may see it differently, but thats my opinion anyways.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by MaVilla

[thunderball]

13 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

This is going to be blown up astronomically by people who are desperate to win " the wokest warrior " awards isn't it?

Context, nuance and intent still matters. You can frame anything to look how we want it to ffs.

I get everything is alot more sensitive now and he may need a heads up on why this probably won't fly but Jesus man.

People need to chill out... I highly doubt we've hired a KKK Grand Wizard as our Football Director.

 

Lol, when I saw this I immediately wondered what @JAMAICAN-VILLAN’s take would be.

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

10 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

Excellent post.

I honestly think the current desire to divide everyone by race, culture, belief etc, and have them turn against each other is ultimately divisive and will (and is) causing more problems than it purports to try and solve.

 

 

Scarily obvious to me.. and we fall for it hook, line and sinker EVERY time.

[rjw63]

13 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

He talks abit ghetto is a bit rowdy but absolutely nothing wrong with him as a person and his work ethic but because he is quite fearless and challenges them at times they trying to force him out. Ive gitten to know him and we become good mates (even if he is a manure fan)  

Colour aside, the bolded bit proves he's a huge bellend

 

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, rjw63 said:

Colour aside, the bolded bit proves he's a huge bellend

 

Unfortunately robert loving in london we are swamped with manaure fans

[rjw63]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

Unfortunately robert loving in london we are swamped with manaure fans

Bloody disgrace. My stepdaughter is a teacher in London, been there five or six years now, she loves it.

i can manage a couple of days, and I've had enough

 

[mjmooney]

 

[Indigo]

32 minutes ago, Rolta said:

I like the Monchi video where he says some pretty strong anti racist statements. Living in Madrid, as far as I'm aware the actual blacking up in the three kings Christmas parade has stopped now. Maybe it was an honour though when it was more common. And it was common until very recently, and people didn't even bat an eye. It probably does still happen elsewhere in smaller places than Madrid. The thing is there's no historic minstrel culture or history of that kind of thing here like we have in the USA or the UK. It is different. 

Going back to the video, he didn't have to say that. He didn't have to put his face and name to standing up to racism. His words in this case really do seem enough to dispel this conversation and put his role as Balzazar down to a bit of a quirk of Spanish culture, which is different and has always had differences to our own. That's not to say things aren't changing in Spain though. I have a lot of stories of genuine racism from my time here, and anyone can see there's quite a visible problem in stadiums and among football fans—and I could tell some tales about undoubtedly racist successful business people too—but, yeah, the video...Monchi seems to have put his name explicitly behind being part of the solution and not the problem.

Have enjoyed your posts on the matter mate. I think it's helpful to have someone that actually has an living awareness of the culture there and specifically the parade itself rather than folk just saying "educate yourself on the parade" as if 1) that wholly justifies the act and 2) they weren't only made aware of it by this incident themselves.

Think it's fair to say good people can do bad things, and this was an example of the latter despite most else of what we've seen from Monchi being the former. That can happen and is probably OK to acknowledge.