Racism Part two

[tomav84]

4 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

Working in people's houses as I do now reminds me a bit of my time running a pub, in that I have to listen to all sorts of nonsense at work.

Last week I was subjected to the "gollywogs aren't racist they used to be free with jam" stuff. Change the subject, take the money.

i commend you for being able to hold your tongue here. your livelihood is on the line so you can't say what you think

working in a big office there are some topics that just don't really get discussed here...this being one of them.

[VILLAMARV]

55 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

i commend you for being able to hold your tongue here. your livelihood is on the line so you can't say what you think

working in a big office there are some topics that just don't really get discussed here...this being one of them.

I'm used to dealing with the public, but it's a really weird dynamic being in someone else's home.

So thank you for the compliment, but also what's the point? I think this, they think that. What would I be trying to acheive? They're not going to change their views because the builder said x/y/z. Pick your battles is what I'm trying to say I suppose. And yeah, I'd like them to pay my invoice so I can give it all to the electric company.

But to comment on the wider point you're making, It's part of the problem, this polarisation thing, where we don't have conversations with people that see things differently (Or in the case of racists are just bigots). The yougov poll thingy does the same thing. I'm sure no one wants me to sound off about opinion polls (again!) but the comments attached to that twitter thread are quite interesting to me. People seem to be able to focus their attention on whatever they read into that tweet. It's the old people, the gammon people, the brexit people, the tory people - and credit to the op for admitting the shortcomings of the thing he's posting - but it's an example of how polarising the response to an opinion poll can be and how entrenched in their own opinions people can become.

[blandy]

44 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

I'm used to dealing with the public, but it's a really weird dynamic being in someone else's home.

So thank you for the compliment, but also what's the point? I think this, they think that. What would I be trying to acheive? They're not going to change their views because the builder said x/y/z. Pick your battles is what I'm trying to say

It's not the same, but in the winter I was abroad for a while and would often go for a pint or two at dinner time, 'cus, y'know...it was hot and I like beer. Anyway, in the pub there were a few people who I'd see a few times a week and natter with. One chap was Brazilian. Probably early 30s. Carpenter, Black, well dressed. Lovely bloke. The conversation around the table turned to politics and Trump, Bolsenaro, Europe and stuff. This bloke was stridently pro-Trump, pro Bolsenaro, anti-socialists (very) , very anti Black Lives Matter - all of which kind of surprised me from is appearance as an educated, seemingly not poor, intelligent, Black man. So it was a strange kind of conversation where I was asking him why? on these various things and then letting him speak without interrupting or pushing back, and then when he had explained why I took a line which wasn't directly what I thought (I completely disagree with everything you've just said), but instead did a kind of "there's a very different perspective on all this in Europe, from a lot of people, who think that....". And we had a genuinely fascinating conversation, or at least I did and I think he did, too. And there was common ground to an extent - about France and the racism there, for example. And on BLM I understood where he was coming from in his opposition to it.

I think what I'm saying is sometimes I've found listening can reveal a side you'd never normally see or hear. Othertimes with other people, exactly what you said - the bloke who fixed some loose slates on the roof just coming out with some vile stuff about the Asian people where he lived - I just kept silent and then asked him about whatever, just to change the subject from absolutely toxic racism - like you say, what's the point, when it's clearly so ingrained.

[bickster]

3 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

Nation Cymru

These are the words of a Welsh Consevative Councillor/Magistrate/Licensee/Hairdresser/Freemason/Primary School Governor from Haverfordwest.

 

 

There was also the Welsh Tory, former council candidate for a ward in Cardiff that thought all Welsh people were of a low IQ, that was yesterday too

Quote

A prominent Young Conservative who tried to become a Cardiff councillor last year has posted a video on social media in which she launches a condescending attack on the people of Wales and its capital city.

Jasmin Cogin, who stood unsuccessfully in the Cyncoed ward in the 2022 Cardiff council election, is seen sitting in a living room with bookshelves behind her and a caption on the screen which reads: “Welsh people have lower IQs. Sorry not sorry x”

Nation Cymru

[chrisp65]

Personally, I really struggle with the whole casual racism, sexism, homophobia thing. I struggle to engage with someone that’s gone down that route. I’m more likely to just shut up than try distraction techniques.

I accept many old people probably don’t even realise the world has moved on, but anyone under 80 really should have sufficient manners to keep their shit to themselves.

[MakemineVanilla]

10 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

Working in people's houses as I do now reminds me a bit of my time running a pub, in that I have to listen to all sorts of nonsense at work.

Last week I was subjected to the "gollywogs aren't racist they used to be free with jam" stuff. Change the subject, take the money.

Your tale confirms my view that some people haven't said anything new for decades.

[Rolta]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

There was also the Welsh Tory, former council candidate for a ward in Cardiff that thought all Welsh people were of a low IQ, that was yesterday too

Nation Cymru

I just watched a video of her. What a **** dick. It's an eye-opener into one of the Tory frames of mind.

[markavfc40]

The pub that displayed the golliwog dolls has been forced to close after suppliers refused to have any more dealings with them. Good to see the racist bastards running it got their karma. 

[StefanAVFC]

Is 'terribly white' in the context it was said, really that racist?

Seems to be the latest Tufton Street talking point. I took 'terribly' in this context as 'very' in a negative sense.

Thoughts?

[veloman]

On 14/04/2023 at 21:13, chrisp65 said:

 

I accept many old people probably don’t even realise the world has moved on, but anyone under 80 really should have sufficient manners to keep their shit to themselves.

"Ageist" perhaps 

[MakemineVanilla]

On 11/05/2023 at 10:50, StefanAVFC said:

Is 'terribly white' in the context it was said, really that racist?

 

It was definitely consistent with the BBC's hegelian dialectic project.

[chrisp65]

On 11/05/2023 at 19:28, veloman said:

"Ageist" perhaps 

Only if its not true, I guess.

What bit would you have an issue with? Many people over 80 being a bit stuck in their ways, or people under 80 should know better?

Personally, I have an elderly relative of 87 that when something a bit out of touch is said, I’m unlikely to put up too much of a protest, I won’t agree, but I won’t turn it in to a big deal. I also know people that are in their 70’s and think they can say stuff they really shouldn’t, and I’ll let them know that. Most people I know in their 70’s still have decent access to the modern world, so out of date turns of phrase or whatever should be self censored. But some can’t take a hint that they’ve said something a bit offensive. I’ll try and be constructive but if they’re going to carry on with something I disagree with, I’ll disengage rather than be around something negative.

If that counts as age prejudice on my part, well, I guess I’ll have to work on it somehow. Any suggestions? 

 

 

[KentVillan]

On 14/04/2023 at 18:34, blandy said:

It's not the same, but in the winter I was abroad for a while and would often go for a pint or two at dinner time, 'cus, y'know...it was hot and I like beer. Anyway, in the pub there were a few people who I'd see a few times a week and natter with. One chap was Brazilian. Probably early 30s. Carpenter, Black, well dressed. Lovely bloke. The conversation around the table turned to politics and Trump, Bolsenaro, Europe and stuff. This bloke was stridently pro-Trump, pro Bolsenaro, anti-socialists (very) , very anti Black Lives Matter - all of which kind of surprised me from is appearance as an educated, seemingly not poor, intelligent, Black man. So it was a strange kind of conversation where I was asking him why? on these various things and then letting him speak without interrupting or pushing back, and then when he had explained why I took a line which wasn't directly what I thought (I completely disagree with everything you've just said), but instead did a kind of "there's a very different perspective on all this in Europe, from a lot of people, who think that....". And we had a genuinely fascinating conversation, or at least I did and I think he did, too. And there was common ground to an extent - about France and the racism there, for example. And on BLM I understood where he was coming from in his opposition to it.

I think what I'm saying is sometimes I've found listening can reveal a side you'd never normally see or hear. Othertimes with other people, exactly what you said - the bloke who fixed some loose slates on the roof just coming out with some vile stuff about the Asian people where he lived - I just kept silent and then asked him about whatever, just to change the subject from absolutely toxic racism - like you say, what's the point, when it's clearly so ingrained.

I think in Latin America there's a view that the "Anglo Saxon" countries are obsessed with skin colour in a way that they aren't, and which can overshadow what they see as more important issues.

But actually racial differences in affluence and status are still a big thing in Latin America, it's just that it's so much more blurred there, with most people being of mixed ethnicity of one kind of another.

It's healthy to be able to talk about these things in a calm, good faith way. I really dislike the Twitter discourse that white people simply aren't entitled to an opinion on racism because we supposedly are incapable of experiencing or noticing it. I don't think it makes much sense. Fairer to say that white people *usually* enjoy enormous privilege and *usually* aren't affected by racism, but you know... a lot of Irish or Romanian people would disagree with that.

Equally though, I am kind of sceptical of anyone who can't see that Trump and Bolsonaro are nasty human beings who want to take society backwards.

[Demitri_C]

Vininus jr racially abused by valencia fans in la liga

La liga has massive problems with racism worse than here in my opinion

[Rustibrooks]

2 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Vininus jr racially abused by valencia fans in la liga

La liga has massive problems with racism worse than here in my opinion

It also seems that the La Liga president is more concerned about the image of the league rather than solving the issue. (Which is one of the problems with sorting racism out). Instead of him listening to what Vini has said/ addressing what everyone saw. I’m not really surprised though, my first two times that I’ve been to mainland Spain I experienced racism as well. When I was in the Canary Islands it was a lot better though

[Demitri_C]

2 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

It also seems that the La Liga president is more concerned about the image of the league rather than solving the issue. (Which is one of the problems with sorting racism out). Instead of him listening to what Vini has said/ addressing what everyone saw. I’m not really surprised though, my first two times that I’ve been to mainland Spain I experienced racism as well. When I was in the Canary Islands it was a lot better though

I know we say its bad here but it seems spain is alot worse. 

For a big footballing nation like spain its completely unacceptable that they are not doing more 

[Rolta]

2 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

I know we say its bad here but it seems spain is alot worse. 

For a big footballing nation like spain its completely unacceptable that they are not doing more 

I live in Madrid and Spanish people fall into racism way too easily. They came out of a dictatorship at the end of the 70s, they've barely been multicultural, and in so many ways they're about 20 years behind us. We do have our own dickheads though—and the dickheads in Spain are the exact same dickheads as in the UK. I think they have more of the racist type though—over-macho ignorant crap. There's a bit more status here in Spain found in just bullshitting your way through things and pretending you're 'the man', and a lot of the bravado manifests in souped up arrogance and over-asserted tribal bullshit. There are also a lot of actual, out in the open fascists, and apparently clubs like Valencia and Atletico are some of the worst examples. I played football last night, and the guy who served us in the bar often wears a legionnaires (Franco's fascist army) hoody. He was bitching about Vincius, no surprise.

I also have two fourteen year old students who consume endless racist shit on TikTok. 80% of the memes are racist. They play fascist songs thinking it's funny. I know fourteen year olds are pretty much awful, but I've had to call them out on this near enough constantly. Here when 14 year olds act out they roleplay as actual fascists. Some people don't grow out of it. Racism is normalised here, and again it's all from them showing off and trying to be macho. It's a nightmare.

I'm leaning on the 'macho' side of things a lot here, but there are female equivalents too. I just don't get exposed to it quite as much.

Not all of Spain is like this by any means. There are loads of great people, but it's heavily polarised and the pricks make a lot of noise.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Rolta

[Follyfoot]

5 hours ago, Rolta said:

I live in Madrid and Spanish people fall into racism way too easily. They came out of a dictatorship at the end of the 70s, they've barely been multicultural, and in so many ways they're about 20 years behind us. We do have our own dickheads though—and the dickheads in Spain are the exact same dickheads as in the UK. I think they have more of the racist type though—over-macho ignorant crap. There's a bit more status here in Spain found in just bullshitting your way through things and pretending you're 'the man', and a lot of the bravado manifests in souped up arrogance and over-asserted tribal bullshit. There are also a lot of actual, out in the open fascists, and apparently clubs like Valencia and Atletico are some of the worst examples. I played football last night, and the guy who served us in the bar often wears a legionnaires (Franco's fascist army) hoody. He was bitching about Vincius, no surprise.

I also have two fourteen year old students who consume endless racist shit on TikTok. 80% of the memes are racist. They play fascist songs thinking it's funny. I know fourteen year olds are pretty much awful, but I've had to call them out on this near enough constantly. Here when 14 year olds act out they roleplay as actual fascists. Some people don't grow out of it. Racism is normalised here, and again it's all from them showing off and trying to be macho. It's a nightmare.

I'm leaning on the 'macho' side of things a lot here, but there are female equivalents too. I just don't get exposed to it quite as much.

Not all of Spain is like this by any means. There are loads of great people, but it's heavily polarised and the pricks make a lot of noise.

 

[foreveryoung]

7 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

I know we say its bad here but it seems spain is alot worse. 

For a big footballing nation like spain its completely unacceptable that they are not doing more 

Ya think???

Racism in football is not bad here, usually just some random word removed, why, because we have zero tolerance on racism in stadiums, Spain don't, as you can see the blame has been put on the player. This would never happen here and really annoys me when people come out with comments like this bull*****

[Seat68]

35 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Ya think???

Racism in football is not bad here, usually just some random word removed, why, because we have zero tolerance on racism in stadiums, Spain don't, as you can see the blame has been put on the player. This would never happen here and really annoys me when people come out with comments like this bull*****

Kick it out report stats on abuse in the pro game and grass roots game. It’s shocking the number of incidents. I would link to it but it’s fairly difficult.