HanoiVillan Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: and Goodnight. This is kind of the crux of it, isn't it. But the good news is each and every person reading this has some agency here. You can choose to focus on the legacies of this country's imperial past, and the structural racism faced by BAME people across the country, including the hugely disproportionate fatality rate they have experienced from this pandemic. Or, I guess, you can choose to focus on bellyaching over some media rights holders cutting some racial epithets from a 45 year old sitcom. Tomorrow's newspapers and breakfast shows and radio phone-ins will push you towards the latter, but you can choose differently. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 11, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, Awol said: Really? Your life chances in this country are based on money, not ethnicity. I don’t know how to saying any clearer than that. I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. Is a lot of money enough to get you over some barriers that exist because of race? Absolutely. I’d agree with that 100% But to deny those barriers exist is barmy, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, Awol said: Really? Your life chances in this country are based on money, not ethnicity. I don’t know how to saying any clearer than that. An Indian Secretary of State and Chancellor of the Exchequer does suggest there is some truth in that. Unless Indians have it easier than other ethnic minorities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, Awol said: Really? Your life chances in this country are based on money, not ethnicity. I don’t know how to saying any clearer than that. Its both But your chance to earn more money is demonstrably based on your skin colour 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 11, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: An Indian Secretary of State and Chancellor of the Exchequer does suggest there is some truth in that. Unless Indians have it easier than other ethnic minorities? But nobody is saying that this country is so racist that no BAME person can ever be a success. Opportunities exist for everyone, but if you can’t see that they’re harder to come by for some people than others then I think it’s naive. Edited June 11, 2020 by Stevo985 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Its both But your chance to earn more money is demonstrably based on your skin colour This is true and hopefully this whole movement will signal the start of significant change. We all know it’s a going to a take a very long time though. As barriers come down people of all skin colours need to make sure the opportunities presented are taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 I hope they don't take down and filter out The Office, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Shooting Stars, Ali G, The It Crowd, Garth Marenghi, Flight Of The Conchords and Father Ted next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: But nobody is saying that this country is so racist that no BAME person can ever be a success. Opportunities exist for everyone, but if you can’t see that they’re harder to come by for some people than others then I think it’s naive. Money can certainly solve it, but the ability to come by money can be hindered by race as well. Believe it or not I’ve actually heard this be said by people close to me. Along with the only way to make money is by crime (sounds better in a different language). It’s the wrong attitude to have and infuriates me when close mates have said it. I agree with your post though. Nobody can deny there are barriers, especially the higher up you go. Edited June 11, 2020 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 11, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 11, 2020 Just now, Vive_La_Villa said: Believe it or not I’ve actually heard this he said by people close to me. Along with the only way to make money is by crime (sounds better in a different language). It’s the wrong attitude to have and infuriates me when close mates have said it. I agree with your post though. Nobody can deny there are barriers, especially the higher up you go. If anything the fact that having an Indian chancellor is so notable kinda highlights the lack of diversity in top government positions historically 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: If anything the fact that having an Indian chancellor is so notable kinda highlights the lack of diversity in top government positions historically It does. But it can also be a positive sign of barriers being broken down. Although for Indians the UK is way behind America and Canada in terms of top government positions. The situation is a lot more complex for the black community. For some reason Indians or ‘Asians’ seem to be getting a lot more opportunities. Apart from in football that is. That’s where Asians don’t seem to get a chance. Either that or they are just shit. Edited June 11, 2020 by Vive_La_Villa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 28 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: This is kind of the crux of it, isn't it. But the good news is each and every person reading this has some agency here. You can choose to focus on the legacies of this country's imperial past, and the structural racism faced by BAME people across the country, including the hugely disproportionate fatality rate they have experienced from this pandemic. Or, I guess, you can choose to focus on bellyaching over some media rights holders cutting some racial epithets from a 45 year old sitcom. Tomorrow's newspapers and breakfast shows and radio phone-ins will push you towards the latter, but you can choose differently. Or a slab of stone being defaced or dismantled. It's quite telling where people's priorities lie when you look at what they complain about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mandy Lifeboats Posted June 12, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 12, 2020 I grew up in the 70s. My parents were racist. My grandparents were racist. Racism was an accepted and normal part of society. I went to school and my best friend was an Indian lad. Even though my best friend was Indian I still made racist remarks to other Indians. But as I grew up I grew as a person and my racism became less. But I am still growing up and I am still racist even though I know it’s wrong. But I am not sure how racist I am. I still find the Fawlty Towers “Don’t Mention The War” episode to be hilarious and genius. I can see that shows like “Love Thy Neighbour” was wrong but was Fawlty Towers? If it’s offensive for white comedians to dress up as black characters should we be morally outraged at Ali G? I don’t have the answers. But I know my standpoint at 15 was different to my standpoint at 25, 35 and 45. So it will be different at 55. What matters is not my racist views of the past or my racist views of the present but my willingness to question my behaviour and evolve and change. There is a lot of hate and division in the world at the moment. Take it from an old git like me - whatever your views are today and regardless of how strong you hold them just listen to other people’s views and amend your own views accordingly. But don’t hold onto what was right in the past or what you thought was right yesterday. Change without beating yourself up for past mistakes or current mistakes. I have. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 8 hours ago, Keyblade said: Black people get to decide if they can use it and also whether or not they're offended by it tbh. What about if it doesnt offend many of them but a small minority then what? You appease a small few? I have a lot of black friends as i went to a school that was predominantly black. Most that i have spoken with found little Britain absolutely hilarous and not offended at all. Same with bo selecta. So there is the problem its offesnive tk say and not others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, villa4europe said: Its both But your chance to earn more money is demonstrably based on your skin colour Do you have evidence to back this statement up? Or is that a observation from your personal experience? Edited June 12, 2020 by Demitri_C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterw Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) For a start there isn't an 'Indian' Chancellor or an 'Indian' home Secretary. There's a pair of clearings in the woods but that's a different argument. To label them as being 'indian' is lazy and the kind of casual racism that allows the mind to label and therefore presuppose and judge others. They are not Indian and we should be careful to avoid falling into that trap. on the wider statue point there is a dividing line between sensible decisions based on overt racism, and and those that lived with racism as part of the world the inhabited. I do not believe Sir Francis Drake was a racist for example despite his undoubted ties to slavery. Without doubt he was a 'wrong un' in 21st century morality but the overall nub of his existence was that of a pirate. our history is more accurate relating to him now than the buccaneering cavalier he has sometimes be painted out to be. As a pirate he would rob, loot, kill, and steel at a time others were doing it. It was the de rigeur essence of the 16th century naval existence. People and lives to him were secondary to hi life as a pirate. he wasn't part of the slave trade, he was part of the pirate world where anything and anything went. He should be recognised on those levels and we as a country still haven't got to grips with how we made our wealth and that is a question for us to look at. Drake's statue shouldn't be taken down because of racism because there is no evidence to suggest that he was. he was hated by the Spanish for what he did to them demonstrating he was what he was. Someone who was driven by the value of trinkets, not the colour of someone's skin. So those that want to take down statues need to have a proper reasoned idea for doing so and most people would back them on it. But they shouldn't be doing it just because of a link to slavery or for killing during warfare. Drake, Nelson, Gladstone for instance. Otherwise they will start to lose the debate and it will descend to the white noise of debating why our war heroes shouldn't be honoured, or how it is that 'can't say nuffink nowadays' and the moment will be lost. Churchill i would find if harder to defend. Great as a wartime leader, but a horrible racist. Edited June 12, 2020 by peterw 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 28 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Do you have evidence to back this statement up? Or is that a observation from your personal experience? There are plenty of studies which back this up. Have a look at these from the UK, Australia and Sweden all finding the same conclusion. UK: Quote They sent around 3,200 fake job applications for both manual and non-manual jobs - including chefs, shop assistants, accountants and software engineers - in response to adverts on a popular recruitment site between November 2016 and December 2017. All of the fictitious candidates were British citizens, or had moved to the UK by the age of six, and had identical CVs, covering letters and years of experience. The only thing that they changed was the applicant's name, which they based on their ethnic background. While 24% of white British applicants received a call back from UK employers, only 15% of ethnic minority applicants did. Compared to White British applicants, people of: Pakistani heritage had to make 70% more applications Nigerian and South Asian heritage 80% more applications Middle Eastern and north African heritage 90% more applications https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46927417 Australia: Quote A 2015 study by ANU found applicants with Chinese, Middle Eastern and Indigenous sounding names were far less likely to get called for an interview. It's an annoying — and infuriating — reason to miss out on a job https://www.abc.net.au/life/should-you-change-your-name-to-get-a-job/10882358 Sweden: Quote Researchers have found that job applicants with Swedish sounding names are 50 percent more likely to be called back for an interview than people with Arabic names, based on a randomly generated experiment with CV and cover letters. https://www.thelocal.se/20130405/47164 This is just one aspect of systemic racism which leads to increased poverty amongst certain ethnic groups. This studies have been done over and over again in countries around the world and keep coming to the same conclusions, yet nothing much changes. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterw Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 To be honest that you have to find examples and stats to back up your argument baffles me. Surely anyone, everyone, accepts that systemic racism is everywhere and not just in the heads of agitators? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, LondonLax said: There are plenty of studies which back this up. Have a look at these from the UK, Australia and Sweden all finding the same conclusion. UK: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46927417 Australia: https://www.abc.net.au/life/should-you-change-your-name-to-get-a-job/10882358 Sweden: https://www.thelocal.se/20130405/47164 This is just one aspect of systemic racism which leads to increased poverty amongst certain ethnic groups. This studies have been done over and over again in countries around the world and keep coming to the same conclusions, yet nothing much changes. I've seen this in practice in the UK in educational institutions since the 80's. What's most infuriating about this is that the people who are subconsciously choosing Martin Smith ahead of Javid Singh seems wholly unaware of this when you point it out to them. To quote Dave - it is racist whether or not it feels racist. The only way to change this behaviour is to reprogram several hundred years of social programming. I don't necessarily agree that we need to remove TV-shows and be taking down statues but I think there needs to be a lot more racial warnings ahead of TV-shows, plaques and addenda added to our history lessons. Edited June 12, 2020 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 Just now, peterw said: To be honest that you have to find examples and stats to back up your argument baffles me. Surely anyone, everyone, accepts that systemic racism is everywhere and not just in the heads of agitators? Thats how i see it 6 minutes ago, LondonLax said: There are plenty of studies which back this up. Have a look at these from the UK, Australia and Sweden all finding the same conclusion. UK: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46927417 Australia: https://www.abc.net.au/life/should-you-change-your-name-to-get-a-job/10882358 Sweden: https://www.thelocal.se/20130405/47164 This is just one aspect of systemic racism which leads to increased poverty amongst certain ethnic groups. This studies have been done over and over again in countries around the world and keep coming to the same conclusions, yet nothing much changes. At the same time i can only go on my work place but a lot of the senior managers, matrons etc are black. So i feel we have come a long way to where we were. Is it perfect? No but i feel it should also be recognised how far we have come and that seems to not be acknowledged that often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 Protest cancelled tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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