Dean Smith

[hippo]

8 minutes ago, PieFacE said:

I'm on the fence whether I think he should go or not. I hope he turns it around, but I'm not sure he will be given the time to do it. 

I've always had a niggling feeling that Smith was never really a big enough name for NSWE, but we shall see.

Eh ?

They appointed him....and stood by him in other slumps ...and at the end of the season we survived by 1 PT.

All circs where other clubs quite reasonably have pulled the trigger.

 

[KentVillan]

I am a little taken aback by how quickly the tide has turned.

The irony is that on Saturday Smith did a lot of the things his critics have been crying out for. Some of those were things I agreed with, but I thought dropping Mings was actually a massive unforced error and made no sense at all.

I can see the merit in replacing him at the end of the season if we’re subpar this year. I’m struggling to see the case for sacking him now, it seems very panicky and based on a lot of conjecture about the dressing room.

[MaVilla]

4 minutes ago, YLN said:

Calling for Smith to be sacked seems so premature. 

I supported Lambert far too long, but this isn't that. 

4 games ago we beat Utd. 5 games ago we beat Everton 3-0.

Calling for his head 4 games later is very reactionary and, to be frank, i haven't experienced this sort of dramatic turn on a manager in such a short spell ever before. It's quite strange really

so you mention the only 2 wins we have in the last 8 games?

[ozvillafan]

It wasn't long ago that people were calling for Arteta's head at Arsenal.

They lost their first 3 games at a return of something like 1 goal for and 9 against and were rooted to the bottom of the table. There was seemingly no plan, the manager had no clue, the players had no confidence and they were spiraling into mid-table obscurity.

They decided to stick and not twist. Look at them now.

In my opinion, Smith is a better manager than Arteta. And we should follow Arsenal's example.

It cannot last forever, though. There is something... off... about our squad at the moment. They look much less than the happy and united squad they have been over the last 2 years.

[YLN]

2 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

so you mention the only 2 wins we have in the last 8 games?

I'm guessing you think he should be sacked and nothing anyone says will change your mind. Fair enough.

I think 2 wins in 8 is not l good. But it's not  sackable form by any stretch of the imagination. We finished 11th last season and 17th the season before. Winning 2 out of 8 during a bad spell when we have players missing and we're trying to introduce a new system having lost our best player is not unexpected

[samjp26]

10 minutes ago, YLN said:

I'm guessing you think he should be sacked and nothing anyone says will change your mind. Fair enough.

I think 2 wins in 8 is not l good. But it's not  sackable form by any stretch of the imagination. We finished 11th last season and 17th the season before. Winning 2 out of 8 during a bad spell when we have players missing and we're trying to introduce a new system having lost our best player is not unexpected

What about 8 wins in nearly 30 games?

[hippo]

11 minutes ago, ozvillafan said:

It wasn't long ago that people were calling for Arteta's head at Arsenal.

They lost their first 3 games at a return of something like 1 goal for and 9 against and were rooted to the bottom of the table. There was seemingly no plan, the manager had no clue, the players had no confidence and they were spiraling into mid-table obscurity.

They decided to stick and not twist. Look at them now.

In my opinion, Smith is a better manager than Arteta. And we should follow Arsenal's example.

It cannot last forever, though. There is something... off... about our squad at the moment. They look much less than the happy and united squad they have been over the last 2 years.

Hmmmm . I think something has to give. Who's hiring/firing coaching staff .....whose buying the players, why the change from younger players....

How much authority does DS have ? 

Imo the above needs sorting. Irrespective of who the manager is.

I'm guessing but at the minute I'm guessing decision s are being taken on a committee basis ....won't work .....and no decent coach is going to come and work under such a chaotic non structure.

[briny_ear]

10 minutes ago, YLN said:

I'm guessing you think he should be sacked and nothing anyone says will change your mind. Fair enough.

I think 2 wins in 8 is not l good. But it's not  sackable form by any stretch of the imagination. We finished 11th last season and 17th the season before. Winning 2 out of 8 during a bad spell when we have players missing and we're trying to introduce a new system having lost our best player is not unexpected

If you look at those two as part of a record of 7 wins in 24 matches, the problem becomes a bit more apparent

[TrentVilla]

Unless he goes between now and Friday there is surely nothing new to be said? No point having circular debates.

We know what he did three years ago, we know the points difference between X and Y positions and I think we all know we needed a DCM. I think someone mentioned injuries….

I’m out of here and back Friday unless something happens between now and then. 

[Brumstopdogs]

 

[hippo]

3 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

Unless he goes between now and Friday there is surely nothing new to be said? No point having circular debates.

We know what he did three years ago, we know the points difference between X and Y positions and I think we all know we needed a DCM. I think someone mentioned injuries….

I’m out of here and back Friday unless something happens between now and then. 

Does hiring someone for the data analytics dept count as something happening ?

[briny_ear]

4 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

Unless he goes between now and Friday there is surely nothing new to be said? No point having circular debates.

We know what he did three years ago, we know the points difference between X and Y positions and I think we all know we needed a DCM. I think someone mentioned injuries….

I’m out of here and back Friday unless something happens between now and then. 

Friday night is bonfire night. Is that timing significant?

[avfc1982am]

15 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

Yeah, but the rumour was to make him one of the most highly paid managers in the league, that would be 15m+. I can't see CP paying the next manager 10 times what Deano is on

EDIT: I meant to say, I do agree with your logic and the points u made. In my mind, maybe incorrectly (my Mrs tells me this happens frequently) but I had mentally ruled him out

We need to stop pissing around imo and hire the best manager possible regardless of wages. We pay ridiculous amounts to players that are either average, inconsistent or never reach their potential before we get rid. Spend millions pissing money up the wall.  I just think if we have ambition as a club then the next level requires ruthlessness and some balls.  Spurs wont stay shit forever, Wolves look to have turned a corner as have Arsehole. Wham have also gone up a level as we seen yesterday. Palace, Southampton, Brighton are all problems when on their game. European football is lightyears away unless something changes. As I have said previously I would rather spend money on a manager than a player.  

[MaVilla]

28 minutes ago, YLN said:

I'm guessing you think he should be sacked and nothing anyone says will change your mind. Fair enough.

I think 2 wins in 8 is not l good. But it's not  sackable form by any stretch of the imagination. We finished 11th last season and 17th the season before. Winning 2 out of 8 during a bad spell when we have players missing and we're trying to introduce a new system having lost our best player is not unexpected

not at all, i would love him to turn it around and prove his doubters wrong, as if he succeeds in avoiding the sack, its likely we would be doing well, but at the same time, if this form continues, he will have to go.

My point was, lets not use skewed statistics or selective statistics to camp in the "smith in" or "smith out" camp, lets just be honest with the data and it will tell us the true story, so basically, yes you were correct we won against Manure 5 games ago, and Everton 6 games ago, but thats a slight misrepresentation of the data when they were the only 2 wins in 8, and we have only won 8 in 27, and we are 15th in the points per game form table for the entirety of 2021 as a calendar year league table.

But at the same time, i also agree that Deano has done well overall, he got us promoted at the first go, kept us up, and then had a good mid table finish, i suppose the question is, he has on balance done ok/well up to now, but is he the man to take us to the next level?, if the club owners want to take us to the next level?

So to answer your question, no im not Deano out, but I also dont blindly support him when we are clearly in a bit of a mess, and many do have valid criticisms for our really poor form over the last 12 months, as well as Deano having many positives historically for doing what he has done over the last 3 years, thats all im saying.

Edited November 1, 2021 by MaVilla

[briny_ear]

6 minutes ago, Brumstopdogs said:

 

Mid table on “errors leading to a shot” then. Something to build on?

[Keyblade]

18 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

No-one is denying he got the form out of Grealish (although you probably should look at what Jack says about the epiphany he had when he was so ill with his kidneys, and the change that brought to his whole attitude to football). The problem is he hasn’t been able to get much out of the side in Jack’’s absence. And cherry picking one or two bad performances when Jack was playing doesn’t change that basic truth.

It's such a small sample size though. How many games has he been without Jack, less than 30 over 3 seasons? He was our best player, a world class talent. It doesn't take rocket science to deduce that there would be a drop-off when he's out.

Also I wasn't cherry picking at all. Ironically, singling out a single variable and say it is/was the source of our current troubles and/or the source of our previous triumphs sounds like a better description of cherry picking, but I wouldn't accuse anyone of that.

I pointed out that specific West Ham result as an amusing parallel, but I think it's universally agreed upon that we were noticeably worse since the covid outbreak both in our play and our results. In fact, let me delve into that:

In the 7 games since the outbreak, and before the Grealish injury, we only picked up 7 points (1 ppg) compared to the 11 points in the previous 7 (1.57 ppg). The average position of the teams in the latter run of 7 games was was 10.5 compared to 12 for the former. In other words, we did noticeably worse in a slightly easier run of fixtures. There was a distinct drop-off in terms of results, and if you recall, in the performances too.

Grealish was then out for 11 games (he came on as a sub for the Everton game, but that was very late on in the game). In those 11 games, we picked up 12 points (1.1 ppg). For comparison, the average position of the teams we faced was 10.7. In other words, we did roughly the same as we did right before he got injured, with a slightly more difficult fixture list to boot.

So now with this context in mind I'll ask; is it cherry picking to posit that we were just as bad after the outbreak before Grealish got injured, or would you say it's a fair assessment? Because if it's cherry picking, then so is "Smith can't get anything out of the side without Grealish".

 

[GrassyNoel]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I think the notion that people who are concerned, are only taking " 5 results " in isolation as reasoning, is a bit of a disservice if i'm honest.

It will have been compounded by trends which some people have been concerned about for quite some time, YES, even when we were doing better.

Those concerns/trends are now presenting themselves with a combo of performances and results.

It's obviously easier to paper over the cracks when results are better.

5-5 v Forest for me and I was also ecstatic that Derby beat Leeds in the playoff semis: I was convinced it was going to be us v Leeds in the final and I really didn’t fancy us at all against them.

[YLN]

7 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

not at all, i would love him to turn it around and prove his doubters wrong, as if he succeeds in avoiding the sack, its likely we would be doing well, but at the same time, if this form continues, he will have to go.

My point was, lets not use skewed statistics or selective statistics to camp in the "smith in" or "smith out" camp, lets just be honest with the data and it will tell us the true story, so basically, yes you were correct we won against Manure 5 games ago, and Everton 6 games ago, but thats a slight misrepresentation of the data when they were the only 2 wins in 8, and we have only won 8 in 27, and we are 15th in the points per game form table for the entirety of 2021 as a calendar year league table.

But at the same time, i also agree that Deano has done well overall, he got us promoted at the first go, kept us up, and then had a good mid table finish, i suppose the question is, he has on balance done ok/well up to now, but is he the man to take us to the next level?, if the club owners want to take us to the next level?

So to answer your question, no im not Deano out, but I also dont blindly support him when we are clearly in a bit of a mess, and many do have valid criticisms for our really poor form over the last 12 months, as well as Deano having many positives historically for doing what he has done over the last 3 years, thats all im saying.

Oh. Well i didn't know that.

These are my questions too. I have concerns. In particular around how this season has started and the formation etc. I haven't read much of this thread and am only going by the west ham match thread, which was very strongly anti Smith. I know, match thread.

I am still of the opinion that being so adamant that we need smith out is not correct, and we should be adopting a wait and see approach, as you seem to be doing. I'm not certain that Smith will turn it around,  but this is not the time to be certain, one way or the other.

[The_Steve]

18 minutes ago, Brumstopdogs said:

 

We looked so much better drilled defensively. The defensive formation shift hasn't helped - the drop in form of Mings and Targett are notable. Too many unforced errors and turnovers of possession. The midfield gets squeezed and squeezed (an ongoing problem). We've had bad luck with injuries, but it's again a problem of not knowing where to play certain players for their most impact. It's crazy how regressive it's been given how defensively we improved.

[Vive_La_Villa]

Man we’re shit aren’t we? I’d still happily take midtable though.