Dean Smith

[Tomaszk]

17 minutes ago, nick76 said:

This is me now and it never used to be me. 

I dont know whether it is that I am older now and see things differently or that my expectations of the Villa have reduced a lot, more realistic or what. 

When we were consistently in the top half of the table, if we lost but played well I was never happy but the last 10 years of falling to bottom half of the PL regularly and then relegation and then fighting back up to the PL, my perception of what I want to see has changed and my view now matches Tomaszk's points. 

I wonder if we do become regular top half of the table team over the coming years that my view return to old views or whether it is because of my age that I enjoy the game and the way we play, not just the final result.

Edit: Maybe I just enjoy the way Dean's teams play football

Watching Bruce serve up that football in the championship with one of the best teams in the league broke me.

Smith totally turned it round. We aren't alone, just look at the crowds under him. 

[YouUnastanFren]

34 minutes ago, Zatman said:

1st time we have 18 points after 10 games since the 2009/10 season that includes our Championship seasons

Joint most clean sheets this season as well in the League with 2 games in hand 

I'm actually quite pleased that we've got those games in hand because without them we'd be in that title race group and the amount of interest and pressure would be far higher.

We're 2nd for win percentage, 1st for clean sheets per game and 2nd for goals scored per game.

Stunning start for a team with half a new first XI, a year on from a complete squad overhaul after a surprise promotion.

Edited December 14, 2020 by YouUnastanFren

[dont_do_it_doug.]

17 minutes ago, hippo said:

Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Recent posts in the thread are the exact opposite of that.

 

I have reached this conclusion by following certain posters/tweeters and their posts/tweets after the various performances/results. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I would still say give me results > style any day of the week. But I think too often we can confuse 'style' with 'performance', when in reality they're not linked.

[hippo]

8 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I have reached this conclusion by following certain posters/tweeters and their posts/tweets after the various performances/results. 

Fair enough. Just your posts landed after Tro's - who was critical of the brighton/wham performances - but OK with the wolves one - which is pretty much my view.

 

[Tomaszk]

7 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I would still say give me results > style any day of the week. But I think too often we can confuse 'style' with 'performance', when in reality they're not linked.

You can't guarantee results either. As we've seen only in the last few weeks you can play well, deserve to win, and get nothing.

You can more or less guarantee a style if you've planned for it. If you've coached and recruited for it. Performance should follow. Won't 100% of the time, but it will often if you've got the right manager.

[Adam2003]

15 minutes ago, hippo said:

Fair enough. Just your posts landed after Tro's - who was critical of the brighton/wham performances - but OK with the wolves one - which is pretty much my view.

 

I think that’s what he’s saying - people were critical of the losses but not the win even though the performances were much of a muchness. In which case we should stop pretending we care about performances if we only care about results.

Personally I think Results vs Performances is a bit of a reductive argument - depends on position. If we were 18th right now I for one would only care about results!  

[Adam2003]

19 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I would still say give me results > style any day of the week. But I think too often we can confuse 'style' with 'performance', when in reality they're not linked.

Couldn’t agree more with this especially the second sentence.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Just now, Tomaszk said:

You can't guarantee results either. As we've seen only in the last few weeks you can play well, deserve to win, and get nothing.

You can more or less guarantee a style if you've planned for it. If you've coached and recruited for it. Performance should follow. Won't 100% of the time, but it will often if you've got the right manager.

Indeed. But that is less about 'style', which seems to have been inextricably linked with entertainment, as it is about organisation. E.g. Conte wining the title at Chelsea.

[TRO]

18 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

@TRO results are more important than performances to me also. But I don’t judge the performance on the result. 

I get that....but if the defeat renders some sloppy defending that results in conceding goals, that would register for me, in appraising the performance.

I cannot seperate poor defending from so called playing well.....and before you say it.....yes,I do appreciate great skill, where an opponents effort has been unstoppable.....that too would be considered in my evaluation of a performance.

as an example.....I thought we played well against Liverpool, last season at home....but we Lost......so I'm not sure where you have concocted the notion, its all about Results with me.....I have already conceded that results are the first thing I want, not the whole thing.

I am particulary pleased with 5 clean sheets too, fabulous Stat, in the progress of being "difficult to beat"

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by TRO

[Mic09]

2 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I would still say give me results > style any day of the week. But I think too often we can confuse 'style' with 'performance', when in reality they're not linked.

I definitely agree, BUT, as a football fan, the West Ham game was much more enjoyable than the Wolves game.

On the other hand I've been walking around pissed off after hammers, whilst I'm all happy now!

[TRO]

20 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

We’ll have to agree to disagree. I thought we were very lucky wolves weren’t more clinical. They had some guilt edge chances. If those same chances fell to Villa players I wouldn’t be happy they wernt taken. 

I wouldn't expect you to be happy and I wouldn't expect you to dismiss them from your considerations when appraising the overall performance either.

ok....but were they not lucky to get away with (what could be described under current rules) as legitimate penalty claims by us, possibly 3 in all....In fact if you watched the Fulham v Liverpool game, a similar award was made by Andre Marriner, without hesitation.

We all make our own luck..missing gilt edge chances is what I call, not playing well....but credit surely must go to the defending too and Martinez being an integral part of our defence, was magnificent.....that too would also feature in my evaluation of a good performance.

In my humble opinion.....what happens in both penalty area's, must feature in a persons mind when appraising the overall performance.....thats all I am saying.

[villalad21]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I wouldn't expect you to be happy and I wouldn't expect you to dismiss them from your considerations when appraising the overall performance either.

ok....but were they not lucky to get away with (what could be described under current rules) as legitimate penalty claims by us, possibly 3 in all....In fact if you watched the Fulham v Liverpool game, a similar award was made by Andre Marriner, without hesitation.

We all make our own luck..missing gilt edge chances is what I call, not playing well....but credit surely must go to the defending too and Martinez being an integral part of our defence, was magnificent.....that too would also feature in my evaluation of a good performance.

In my humble opinion.....what happens in both penalty area's, must feature in a persons mind when appraising the overall performance.....thats all I am saying.

I am really curious what you would say had Wolves put one of those chances away and won the game  

By all measures we did not deserve to win that game based on clear cut chances. But that is football sometimes.

[Follyfoot]

20 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

We’ll have to agree to disagree. I thought we were very lucky wolves weren’t more clinical. They had some guilt edge chances. If those same chances fell to Villa players I wouldn’t be happy they wernt taken. 

Kind of polar opposite to the West Ham game

[TRO]

3 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I would still say give me results > style any day of the week. But I think too often we can confuse 'style' with 'performance', when in reality they're not linked.

I think its fair to say, interpretations are often misunderstood and sometimes not explained well enough, too.

We all want results and to do it in style too....thats the holy grail....but sometimes you have to win ugly.....I recognise ,Dean Smith does his best to play with a swagger and goes for the win....that has to be applauded in my view...thats what I want too

but when you do have to win ugly, positives can be taken from those perfomances too, like, grit and determination, character, will to win, desire etc,etc.....and when you get young kids of 19 on their debuts, not being fazed by the physical endeavours, that too is a plus.

That is not to say those characteristics are not there when we win well....its just to say, they are things on a bad day, that we have to rely on, more.

 

[villalad21]

Silva hitting the bar has nothing to do with resilience and grit. It's all about luck.

But against good teams like Wolves you need that bit of luck.

I thought we defended set pieces and crosses far better this game and that's a big plus. Wolves chances were for the most part down to good play and not us defending like schoolboys like we did vs West Ham.

Edited December 14, 2020 by villalad21

[vreitti]

11 minutes ago, TRO said:

That is not to say those characteristics are not there when we win well....its just to say, they are things on a bad day, that we have to rely on, more. 

Those same characteristics have been present in all our games, irrespective of result, apart from maybe the second half against Leeds, but it seems it just doesn't fit your own narrative.

[TRO]

38 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

I am really curious what you would say had Wolves put one of those chances away and won the game  

By all measures we did not deserve to win that game based on clear cut chances. But that is football sometimes.

That is something i would have derived at, had it happened....just like if those 3 penalty calls had of been given, what would have i said if we had won 4-0.

You have to focus on the things I praised us for......all the elements required to win on a tough day.......I didn't say we were marvellous footballers and waxed lyrical on our play and then change tune when we lost, which you are alluding too....and others.

I was merely praising us for grinding out the win.......it could have been emphatic, to counter your supposition, but it wasn't......I can't comment on what might have been, only what did happen.

Its funny though....I get criticised for making defensive observations when we lose.....and get criticised for praising elements of our game when we win....that seems rather selective to me.

I do not limit my thoughts to just clear cut chances, i like to think my appraisal is much broader.....what I saw, was determination and a character to take 3 points......we could so easily have chosen not to chase that late ball that JM dug out and beat the defender, it was a time when some players would have taken the ball to the corner flag and played out for the draw.....which would have been a good point too.

No........We deserved to win that ( great defending is a part of deserving).......and I am equally as quick to say we didn't deserve to win a game, when I don't think we did.....we fought hard in that game.

That win gave me, a lot of satisfaction, that I accept, not all will appreciate.

Luck in football has a way of evening its self out.....but as they say, the harder you work, the luckier you get....we was unlucky with decisions at west Ham, again......but who cares now, only us, we lost and thats all the record books will register.

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by TRO

[villalad21]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

That is something i would have derived at, had it happened....just like if those 3 penalty calls had of been given, what would have i said if we won 4-0.

You have to focus on the things I praised us for......all the elements required to win on a tough day.......I didn't say we were marvellous footballers and waxed lyrical on our play and then change tune when we lost, which you are alluding too....and others.

I was merely praising us for grinding out the win.......it could have been emphatic, to counter your supposition, but it wasn't......I can't comment on what might have been, only what did happen.

Its funny though....I get criticised for making defensive observations when we lose.....and get criticised for praising elements of our game when we win....that seems rather selective to me.

I do not limit my thoughts to just clear cut chances, i like to think my appraisal is much broader.....what I saw, was determination and a character to take 3 points......we could so easily have chosen not to chase that late ball that JM dug out and beat the defender, it was a time when some players would have taken the ball to the corner flag and played out for the draw.....which would have been a good point too.

No........We deserved to win that ( great defending is a part of deserving).......and I am equally as quick to say we didn't deserve to win a game, when I don't think we did.....we fought hard in that game.

That win gave me, a lot of satisfaction, that I accept, not all will appreciate.

Luck in football has a way of evening its self out.....but as they say, the harder you work, the luckier you get....we was unlucky with decisions at west Ham, again......but who cares now, we lost and thats all the record books will register.

 

Don't get me wrong i can appreciate an ugly win. 

But when winning ugly i'd prefer us to limit our opponents to half chances.

Some of those Wolves chances were clear cut and Emi really bailed us out of jail. But he is not going to do every week, that isn't sustainable.

Wolves are the masters of defending. I see it as an art. And one day i'd love for us to be as strong as them defensively.

[TRO]

49 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Don't get me wrong i can appreciate an ugly win. 

But when winning ugly i'd prefer us to limit our opponents to half chances.

Some of those Wolves chances were clear cut and Emi really bailed us out of jail. But he is not going to do every week, that isn't sustainable.

Wolves are the masters of defending. I see it as an art. And one day i'd love for us to be as strong as them defensively.

we all see the games the way we do....its the essence of conversation......Emi is a part of the defence? its his job.

If those chances were clear cut, why didn't they score.......El Ghazi, could have missed like Ollie....but he didn't, thats to his credit.

I can only comment on what happened, not what might have happened......"on another day" can be quoted after every game.....on another day, we won't beat Liverpool 7-2.

Edited December 14, 2020 by TRO