DCJonah Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Part of the problem is there's the whole banter behind football now Spurs are shit, arsenal are shit, Everton are shit, everyone is shit... We are on the up, we have ambition they don't... We have spent £350m we should be catching them... They're still £500m+ teams full of experienced internationals These other teams aren't as bad as the media the WhatsApp groups and the various bibles like to make out, mid table is tight I think that's a good point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 minute ago, DCJonah said: Have I? When? In what context? Yes, you have and in the context of comparing us to other teams. Look back at your posts if you can't recall doing so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 13 minutes ago, villa4europe said: To be fair yeah it was an easy job to get in to the playoffs All he had to do was go on a club record streak of wins... Wasn’t that down to the 2 wins in 12 beforehand? Like I said a few points off the playoffs when he arrived with 90+ points to play for. With one of the strongest teams in the league. Hardly the stuff of miracles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, villa4europe said: To be fair yeah it was an easy job to get in to the playoffs All he had to do was go on a club record streak Edited October 28, 2021 by jim double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted October 28, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted October 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: Yes, you have and in the context of comparing us to other teams. Look back at your posts if you can't recall doing so That’s a cop out mate, if you’re going to state something like that, you should be prepared to back it up with some evidence, don’t expect the other person to do the legwork for you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 13 minutes ago, DCJonah said: To finish above midtable? I'd strongly disagree with that when you compare the cost of our squads and wage bills with those teams you'd expect us to take over. What have we done recruitment wise that makes us so much better than the 5 or 6 other teams that would aim to finish in that top half or Europe? I agree with the last part but those expectations need to be realistic. IMO finishing between 8th and 13th is pretty realistic, with the top end being great and 13th being disappointing. Midtable squad being coached by a midtable manager, you cannot disagree. Few agree we would need at least another 150m and 5m in salaries to reach Europa league places. My argument, when some are bigging up Smith as some messiah! I'm sure there are many lower end managers in the Premier League who could get this team to a midtable place fairly comfortably. So @DCJonah what is so special about Smith. What makes him better than say, a Potter (who most have agreed is nothing special), an what are his qualities which makes him so good, that this squad in reality, can only finish in the dizzy heights of midtable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 5 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: Yes, you have and in the context of comparing us to other teams. Look back at your posts if you can't recall doing so I'd be surprised. I compare us to other midtable teams all the time. My whole argument is that we are not some unique team. My evidence for realistic expectations is based on what midtable prem teams have been like for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) As I said earlier Smith has performed no better nor worse than the reasonable expectations put upon him. Now that he has been here for 3 years surely the the goal posts and expectations should move in line with a multi year plan and these targets will change and get harder, therefore, the criteria to which he is scrutinised against become less forgiving. No sentimentality if the pressure builds against Smith these next 2/3 games. We need the finished article to take the next step up the league - Smith was never going to be the manager to lead us through to the NSWE endgame. He will lay solid foundations for the next manager to hopefully continue the process and evolution. What timescale that is, is a valid discussion if based on rational thoughts and open disguising and debate IMO. If Smith turns things around which I hope he does, certain people on here will take it as a personal victory and vindication that their viewpoint Smith position cannot be reasonably questioned… And I don’t see people calling for him to go either in fact. Some escalate our respective rhetorics in response to each other’s positions forgetting the crucial crux of the discussion I believe we are actually having, which is not demanding Smith be replaced but that his position is not beyond fair scrutiny now forgetting the past. Edited October 28, 2021 by thabucks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DCJonah Posted October 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 minute ago, foreveryoung said: Midtable squad being coached by a midtable manager, you cannot disagree. Few agree we would need at least another 150m and 5m in salaries to reach Europa league places. My argument, when some are bigging up Smith as some messiah! I'm sure there are many lower end managers in the Premier League who could get this team to a midtable place fairly comfortably. So @DCJonah what is so special about Smith. What makes him better than say, a Potter (who most have agreed is nothing special), an what are his qualities which makes him so good, that this squad in reality, can only finish in the dizzy heights of midtable. Few agree? Because you say so. OK. If you find one post from where I claim that Smith is the messiah or some elite manager that is guaranteed to lead us to success then I'll gladly apologise to you. But I'm confident you won't find one. I'm sure other managers could as well. I'm also sure many other managers would fail. Many flavours of the month like Wilder or Biesla for example. I'm not so sure he is miles better than Potter. I like Potter. I think he's doing a good job. It's not about Smith being some special manager. It's about him doing everything asked of him and more. And until that changes, he gets my support. Until he can't meet the realistic expectations for this football club, then I feel no desire to constantly criticise the man or question his future here. The reason this squad can only really finish midtable, is because that's where we are as a club on this journey so far. It's pretty simple. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 21 minutes ago, villa4europe said: To be fair yeah it was an easy job to get in to the playoffs All he had to do was go on a club record streak of wins... Yeah because we went on a club record streak of losses previous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, thabucks said: As I said earlier Smith has performed no better nor worse than the reasonable expectations put upon him. Now that he has been here for 3 years surely the the goal posts and expectations should move in line with a multi year plan and these targets will change and get harder, therefore, the criteria to which he is scrutinised against become less forgiving. No sentimentality if the pressure builds against Smith these next 2/3 games. We need the finished article to take the next step up the league - Smith was never going to be the manager to lead us through to the NSWE endgame. He will lay solid foundations for the next manager to hopefully continue the process and evolution. If Smith turns things around which I hope he does, certain people on here will take it as a personal victory and vindication that their viewpoint Smith position cannot be reasonably questioned… And I don’t see people calling for him to go either in fact. Some escalate our respective rhetorics in response to each other’s positions forgetting the crucial crux of the discussion I believe we are actually having, which is not demanding Smith be replaced but that his position is not beyond fair scrutiny now forgetting the past. Agreed. I just don't think we're at that point yet. Now this time next season, I'd probably say different. And people have called for him to be sacked. Some were doing it after he'd been in the job a month or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, thabucks said: As I said earlier Smith has performed no better nor worse than the reasonable expectations put upon him. Now that he has been here for 3 years surely the the goal posts and expectations should move in line with a multi year plan and these targets will change and get harder, therefore, the criteria to which he is scrutinised against become less forgiving. No sentimentality if the pressure builds against Smith these next 2/3 games. Well he is still ahead of schedule since he got promoted a year early 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 We didn't lose more than two games in a row in our promotion season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 If we don't improve our form and quick then we'll looking for a new manager soon enough whether the Smith lover boys like it or not. Thankfully I think we will win the next four and turn the season around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 7 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Yeah because we went on a club record streak of losses previous. Can you prove that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 4 minutes ago, useless said: If we don't improve our form and quick then we'll looking for a new manager soon enough whether the Smith lover boys like it or not. Thankfully I think we will win the next four and turn the season around. I'm a huge fan of Smith, but I also trust our owners 100%. If things continue to go downwards then yes, you're probably right and like with my attitude towards Smith, until the owners prove otherwise, they have my total support. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 Just now, DCJonah said: Agreed. I just don't think we're at that point yet. Now this time next season, I'd probably say different. And people have called for him to be sacked. Some were doing it after he'd been in the job a month or two. I was referring to recent posts on Smith which have not been IMO about Smith has to go, but the point I think where the clash is, is how much Debate we should have around his position given he has been our manager for 3 years now. I have called for him to go in moments of petulance as well as In moments of clarity. I base my judgement on Smith on the last results whilst purposely forgetting/ignoring to suit my own arguments and agenda - other facts that, you say, would use to justify your standpoint and vice versa… we all bend, frame, manipulate & interpret to back up respective POV and that’s the joy of VT. Theres the black and white but then in the middle what about the grey area . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 I'm expecting between eight and twelve points from the next four that's not what I think he needs to achieve to keep his job, but rather what I think we will achieve, the full twelve points really wouldn't surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted October 28, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted October 28, 2021 12 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Yeah because we went on a club record streak of losses previous. 4 defeats in the 14 matches prior to the winning streak is a club record is it? That 2015/16 season was a horrible nightmare after all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 27 minutes ago, MrBlack said: This thread is mental. I'll be back after West Ham. Really enjoying it. Absolutely barmy. Why people follow Villa, or football even, I do not know. It seems to only upset them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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