Genie Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 14 minutes ago, sidcow said: If they're still on there now it's kind of hard to see what will drive them away now. Ita crazy that he bought it (for well over market value) and then personally drove it into the ground. At $40b it has to be the biggest vanity project in history. The idea of something like Twitter remains a good one, but the manner in which Musk wants it to be seen it’s just madness, and he knows it, but he doesn’t care. It’s a shame he’s far too rich to go broke. He could lose 99% of his wealth and still be a billionaire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 1 Moderator Share Posted September 1 38 minutes ago, sidcow said: If they're still on there now it's kind of hard to see what will drive them away now. Depends. Corporate can move slow and is reactive rather than proactive. Lots of other factors too like demographics etc. A lot of the big players already removed themselves hence Musk’s threat to sue lolz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 1 Moderator Share Posted September 1 34 minutes ago, Genie said: Ita crazy that he bought it (for well over market value) and then personally drove it into the ground. At $40b it has to be the biggest vanity project in history. The idea of something like Twitter remains a good one, but the manner in which Musk wants it to be seen it’s just madness, and he knows it, but he doesn’t care. It’s a shame he’s far too rich to go broke. He could lose 99% of his wealth and still be a billionaire. Most of his wealth is Tesla though and there’s a big push against that too and that cyber truck is lethal and could cost the company in a very big way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 58 minutes ago, bickster said: Most of his wealth is Tesla though and there’s a big push against that too and that cyber truck is lethal and could cost the company in a very big way. The shares have been rallying this week, adding about $10b to the value of his personal stash of shares Quote The value of Musk’s roughly 12% stake in the company increased to $160 billion from about $150 billion when the market closed trading Monday, while the weeklong rally has added about $30 billion. Forbes They could go down by 99% and he’d still have about $1,600,000,000 worth, plus his other cash and assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 1 hour ago, bickster said: Most of his wealth is Tesla though and there’s a big push against that too and that cyber truck is lethal and could cost the company in a very big way. Even if Tesla and Twitter fell to zero, he could easily take SpaceX public (or just sell it) and make another enormous stack of money. They’re going from strength to strength in the background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted September 1 Administrator Share Posted September 1 6 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Even if Tesla and Twitter fell to zero, he could easily take SpaceX public (or just sell it) and make another enormous stack of money. They’re going from strength to strength in the background. I'm not sure the other investors in SpaceX would want to go public. Google, for example, are probably quite happy keeping a degree of control for future plans. I think the 46% of other investors wouldn't go public with king ponzi involved. Assuming he could even get it done before the SEC catch up with his previous stock manipulations. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Townsend Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 2 hours ago, bickster said: Depends. Corporate can move slow and is reactive rather than proactive. Lots of other factors too like demographics etc. A lot of the big players already removed themselves hence Musk’s threat to sue lolz All the good he could have done with that money and look at how he wasted it or arguably used it for bad purposes. Awful man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 3 hours ago, limpid said: I'm not sure the other investors in SpaceX would want to go public. Google, for example, are probably quite happy keeping a degree of control for future plans. I think the 46% of other investors wouldn't go public with king ponzi involved. Assuming he could even get it done before the SEC catch up with his previous stock manipulations. Elon has something like ~80% of the voting rights so I’m not sure it matters too much what anyone else (except the SEC) thinks. But yes, on reflection going public would be an unnecessarily complex way of selling shares in SpaceX. Either way, though, he’s got a stake in the company worth something in the region if $100bn, so even if Twitter and Tesla imploded and somehow fell to zero he’d still be the 15th richest man in the world. His level of wealth is absolutely absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted September 1 Administrator Share Posted September 1 5 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Elon has something like ~80% of the voting rights so I’m not sure it matters too much what anyone else (except the SEC) thinks. But yes, on reflection going public would be an unnecessarily complex way of selling shares in SpaceX. Either way, though, he’s got a stake in the company worth something in the region if $100bn, so even if Twitter and Tesla imploded and somehow fell to zero he’d still be the 15th richest man in the world. His level of wealth is absolutely absurd. They've not published any information about shares / voting rights since 2021 (after the 202 funding round). There has been a new CEO appointed since then. If NASA pull the plug then he has to find a way to finance Starlink (the only revenue stream outside NASA bar a few ego missions). They will already be watching as he's kept none of his promises about pricing for ISS missions and is so far behind on the moon mission that is unlikely to ever be delivered. It's all built on ponzi schemes and he will get called on it eventually. His bits of paper claiming how rich he is won't be worth much in prison. And he can't run for president. It's terrifying that he can hold the world hostage by threatening to fill LEO with bits of Starlink satellites if he doesn't get his way over something. Although he's perfectly capable of doing that accidentally. It's good that they are keeping him away from SpaecX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 (edited) 56 minutes ago, limpid said: They've not published any information about shares / voting rights since 2021 (after the 202 funding round). There has been a new CEO appointed since then. If NASA pull the plug then he has to find a way to finance Starlink (the only revenue stream outside NASA bar a few ego missions). They will already be watching as he's kept none of his promises about pricing for ISS missions and is so far behind on the moon mission that is unlikely to ever be delivered. It's all built on ponzi schemes and he will get called on it eventually. His bits of paper claiming how rich he is won't be worth much in prison. And he can't run for president. It's terrifying that he can hold the world hostage by threatening to fill LEO with bits of Starlink satellites if he doesn't get his way over something. Although he's perfectly capable of doing that accidentally. It's good that they are keeping him away from SpaecX. Which of his businesses are Ponzi schemes? Why is he going to go to jail? Why is NASA going to pull the plug on SpaceX, and who are they planning to replace them with? Sure, Musk is a weird libertarian billionaire ****head who seems to have lost touch with reality. But that’s not a crime, otherwise Peter Thiel would have been locked up a long time ago. Edited September 1 by Panto_Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted September 1 Administrator Share Posted September 1 Just now, Panto_Villan said: Which of his businesses are Ponzi schemes? Why is he going to go to jail? All of them. ANy business which consistently trades with a market cap in excess of the worth of it's assets and order book is a ponzi. 1 minute ago, Panto_Villan said: Why is NASA going to pull the plug on SpaceX, and who are they planning to replace them with? Because he's already in material breach of contract and has already missed other targets. I've no idea who they'll replace him with, I assume that they'll have to re-tender as with any other government contract. They paid the Russians to do it for years - maybe the Chinese? 3 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Sure, Musk is a weird libertarian billionaire dickhead who seems to have lost touch with reality. But that’s not a crime, otherwise Peter Thiel would have been locked up a long time ago. You should have a look into Theranos and Nikola Motors. Both CEOs in jail for making promises to investors which were untrue. cf. "full self driving coming this year" (for over a decade), "electric semi units that already beat trains", "solar roof tiles" - and those are just from the Tesla ponzi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Which of his businesses are Ponzi schemes? Why is he going to go to jail? Tesla is ludicrously over priced, and the day Musk announces he is stepping down the price will collapse. BMW Group: $57b VW Group: $56b ———— Tesla: $689b It’s insane and when it falls it’ll send massive ripples across all the world markets. Edited September 1 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 17 minutes ago, limpid said: All of them. ANy business which consistently trades with a market cap in excess of the worth of it's assets and order book is a ponzi. Because he's already in material breach of contract and has already missed other targets. I've no idea who they'll replace him with, I assume that they'll have to re-tender as with any other government contract. They paid the Russians to do it for years - maybe the Chinese? You should have a look into Theranos and Nikola Motors. Both CEOs in jail for making promises to investors which were untrue. cf. "full self driving coming this year" (for over a decade), "electric semi units that already beat trains", "solar roof tiles" - and those are just from the Tesla ponzi. The stock market valuation of a business is its current net assets (basically the cash and orders you mentioned) PLUS what investors think is the current value of all future profits. No business trades at pure net asset value unless it’s about to collapse, so under your logic literally every listed business in the world is a Ponzi scheme. I also don’t think you know what a Ponzi scheme is. You should look into the differences between Bernie Madoff (ran a literal Ponzi scheme), Theranos (CEO defrauded investors with falsified evidence about their product, but not a Ponzi) and WeWork, where charismatic founders convinced investors to back an unrealistic business plan and failed at it, costing investors lots of money. They’re all different scenarios that played out differently. In the first two cases the CEO went to jail, but with WeWork no crime was committed. It's the same with Musk. He’s constantly making overambitious promises, but its not a crime to fail to deliver on future planned products or to miss sales targets. The investors should have known they were unrealistic. Finally - no, NASA isn’t going to pull the plug on SpaceX. America would never have got to space at all had products arriving late and over budget been a dealbreaker. SpaceX’s only Western competition (ULA) are far less reliable and far more expensive, and obviously the US is not going to hand over their space program to the Russians and Chinese, their biggest geopolitical rivals (who both also have more expensive and worse tech then SpaceX anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 57 minutes ago, Genie said: Tesla is ludicrously over priced, and the day Musk announces he is stepping down the price will collapse. BMW Group: $57b VW Group: $56b ———— Tesla: $689b It’s insane and when it falls it’ll send massive ripples across all the world markets. Yup, no arguments from me about the absurd valuation - it’s valued like a (high-margin) tech company when it’s actually a (low margin) car and battery manufacturer. It’s absolutely not a Ponzi scheme though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 2 Moderator Share Posted September 2 The Brazilian thing gets more amusing. It includes SpaceX now… SpaceX in this instance means Starlink. SpaceX is effectively an ISP in Brazil and even though they are separate companies as they are both under Musk's control and are a de facto group under Brazilian law Oh and twitter lost 22 million users in Brazil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 3 minutes ago, bickster said: The Brazilian thing gets more amusing. It includes SpaceX now… SpaceX in this instance means Starlink. SpaceX is effectively an ISP in Brazil and even though they are separate companies as they are both under Musk's control and are a de facto group under Brazilian law Oh and twitter lost 22 million users in Brazil No doubt he’ll threaten to sue them for something or other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 2 Moderator Share Posted September 2 53 minutes ago, Genie said: No doubt he’ll threaten to sue them for something or other Needs some form of legal representation to do that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted September 2 VT Supporter Share Posted September 2 On 01/09/2024 at 10:21, Genie said: Ita crazy that he bought it (for well over market value) and then personally drove it into the ground. At $40b it has to be the biggest vanity project in history. The idea of something like Twitter remains a good one, but the manner in which Musk wants it to be seen it’s just madness, and he knows it, but he doesn’t care. It’s a shame he’s far too rich to go broke. He could lose 99% of his wealth and still be a billionaire. It’s crazy money to “waste” if you think he’s purchased it to make it profitable. It’s as clear as day that this was not the reason. Take the current Brazil stuff on the go at the moment. There is a strong case to be claimed that what’s behind that spat, is his need for lithium and niobium (95% of the worlds niobium deposits are in Brazil). He destabilises the current regime in the hopes of a right-wing replacement with whom he can do business. Twitter is not an information platform, it’s a destabilising tool. If you look at all the topics he wades in on (how many times did he tell us civil war was around the UK corner?) it fairly obvious, to me at least, that his purchase of Twitter was never about him making money out of it. He’s using it to further his interests and make more money for himself through his larger business interests. A sociopath who is only interested in what benefits him personally. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted September 2 Moderator Share Posted September 2 18 minutes ago, choffer said: A proper, old-school, white South African stereotype. FTFY 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted September 3 VT Supporter Share Posted September 3 What on earth is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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