John McGinn

[Zhan_Zhuang]

Yeah not sure if McGinn is capable of two games in a week and to be consistent.

[DJBOB]

29 minutes ago, lexicon said:

As in the Newcastle game, absolutely anonymous. 

Is he a flat-track bully? He's been excellent against weaker teams this season. 

Struggles to really get involved against the high press from LM. His natural inclination is to turn left but that takes up Digne’s space. He’s better on the right. 

[MotoMkali]

Absolutely awful today. Offered no outlet vs the high press and was disastrous defending. His worst game since emery came in for sure. And would have been among his worst under Gerrard too. 

[villan95]

I wonder if his inclination to be inside gave TAA more space. Hopefully Ramsey is back soon and McGinn can go back to RM.

[AVTuco]

Wish he was able to play today, really missed him out there.

[TRO]

19 hours ago, DJBOB said:

Struggles to really get involved against the high press from LM. His natural inclination is to turn left but that takes up Digne’s space. He’s better on the right. 

I think a lot of our players, struggle against the press, not just John Mcginn......we play well without pressure.....give us space, and we are a good team.

We can go back to many games, even Stevenage, where pressure on the ball has disrupted our passing style.....we simply don't win enough one on one duels, to render the press ineffective.....If we did, teams would not pursue it.

Any team that pressurizes us, stops us playing....and it works on too many occasions......we talk about Newcastle and Liverpool, but a relegated Leicester did it to us, at home......its our achilles.

 

[AVFCDAN]

Have to be careful not to overanalyse one bad team performance.

We aren't a team full of world beaters, we will lose games and we will look ordinary at times.

By all means critique the performance but making sweeping statements about how good or bad someone is after two games is just pointless.

[DJBOB]

33 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think a lot of our players, struggle against the press, not just John Mcginn......we play well without pressure.....give us space, and we are a good team.

We can go back to many games, even Stevenage, where pressure on the ball has disrupted our passing style.....we simply don't win enough one on one duels, to render the press ineffective.....If we did, teams would not pursue it.

Any team that pressurizes us, stops us playing....and it works on too many occasions......we talk about Newcastle and Liverpool, but a relegated Leicester did it to us, at home......its our achilles.

 

I think it depends. Against an effective press, we have struggled. 
 
But Newcastle came to us and tried to press and were dismantled. Burnley last week tried to do the same and were picked apart. McGinn did great against Spurs at home when he played CM and they were pressing him deep. 
 
But there is a certain structure we struggle against, when they smother our talented double pivot and ask our forwards to win 1v1 - that Unai has not yet solved. 

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I think it depends. Against an effective press, we have struggled. 
 
But Newcastle came to us and tried to press and were dismantled. Burnley last week tried to do the same and were picked apart. McGinn did great against Spurs at home when he played CM and they were pressing him deep. 
 
But there is a certain structure we struggle against, when they smother our talented double pivot and ask our forwards to win 1v1 - that Unai has not yet solved. 

I don't quite see it like that.

you are right in your examples.....but McGinn set the tone against Newcastle, where he came out of the traps and molested Dan Burn( as good as).....Dan Burns performance, disappeared after that, he had been rumbled. It lifted the crowd and lifted our team.....The intention was set.

Folk, will inevitably have their own opinions....some technical, some more pragmatic.

I am more inclined to think of it is more pragmatic, A few early (fair)robust challenges sets the tone, and it sets the tone for the other players in our team....its a statement of intent, saying " this is whats required here"..thats what leaders do.

I am less inclined to turn to structure, system or set up, not dismiss it, but just not convinced its that in the main......Its the statement of intent for me, ( driven by actions)and when there is no statement of intent, the oppositions desire level is raised.

Just as the home crowd can lift a team.....the oppositions reluctance to engage/ battle for the ball, can have a similar effect.

Liverpool smelt blood, and there was nothing to stop them.

Edited September 4, 2023 by TRO

[Risso]

He should be playing on the right, quite simply. 

[Tomaszk]

20 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I think it depends. Against an effective press, we have struggled. 
 
But Newcastle came to us and tried to press and were dismantled. Burnley last week tried to do the same and were picked apart. McGinn did great against Spurs at home when he played CM and they were pressing him deep. 
 
But there is a certain structure we struggle against, when they smother our talented double pivot and ask our forwards to win 1v1 - that Unai has not yet solved. 

In that scenario, that's when we need the two 10s drifting infield to receive passes from Emi or any of the defence.

Move to where your marker won't want to go as it's so far away from their position.

That's why McGinn is so much better on the right. He comes in and is onto his left foot.

We didn't do it at all against Newcastle or Liverpool.

Buendia was looking really good doing this a lot in pre-season.

[TRO]

30 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I think it depends. Against an effective press, we have struggled. 
 
But Newcastle came to us and tried to press and were dismantled. Burnley last week tried to do the same and were picked apart. McGinn did great against Spurs at home when he played CM and they were pressing him deep. 
 
But there is a certain structure we struggle against, when they smother our talented double pivot and ask our forwards to win 1v1 - that Unai has not yet solved. 

For sure.

and until we do, we can curtail/shelve the high expectations some fans have.

[DJBOB]

14 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

In that scenario, that's when we need the two 10s drifting infield to receive passes from Emi or any of the defence.

Move to where your marker won't want to go as it's so far away from their position.

That's why McGinn is so much better on the right. He comes in and is onto his left foot.

We didn't do it at all against Newcastle or Liverpool.

Buendia was looking really good doing this a lot in pre-season.

Yes for sure. That’s why we did so well with McGinn on the right and JJ or Buendia on the left. It was very natural for them to come in and play in the space above the opposing midfielders pressing our double pivot. 
 
McGinn doesn’t want to come in from the left. Cash at RM against pressure - this is an absolute no for me. 
 
Brighton do a variation of this where their wingers stay very wide but their CF’s drop down in the 10 position asking the CB’s to follow them. 
 
McGinn needs to be on the right space, but injuries have shoe horned him to the left where he’s fine when teams sit back but ineffective against the press. 

[DJBOB]

22 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't quite see it like that.

you are right in your examples.....but McGinn set the tone against Newcastle, where he came out of the traps and molested Dan Burn( as good as).....Dan Burns performance, disappeared after that, he had been rumbled. It lifted the crowd and lifted our team.....The intention was set.

Folk, will inevitably have their own opinions....some technical, some more pragmatic.

I am more inclined to think of it is more pragmatic, A few early (fair)robust challenges sets the tone, and it sets the tone for the other players in our team....its a statement of intent, saying " this is whats required here"..thats what leaders do.

I am less inclined to turn to structure, system or set up, not dismiss it, but just not convinced its that in the main......Its the statement of intent for me, ( driven by actions)and when there is no statement of intent, the oppositions desire level is raised.

Just as the home crowd can lift a team.....the oppositions reluctance to engage/ battle for the ball, can have a similar effect.

Liverpool smelt blood, and there was nothing to stop them.

Yes it’s part intent, part tactics, part personnel. We don’t have the right mix right now. Unai will figure it out but I am not too surprised that it looks a bit off. 

[avfc1982am]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I think a lot of our players, struggle against the press, not just John Mcginn......we play well without pressure.....give us space, and we are a good team.

We can go back to many games, even Stevenage, where pressure on the ball has disrupted our passing style.....we simply don't win enough one on one duels, to render the press ineffective.....If we did, teams would not pursue it.

Any team that pressurizes us, stops us playing....and it works on too many occasions......we talk about Newcastle and Liverpool, but a relegated Leicester did it to us, at home......its our achilles.

 

Winning duels has nothing to do with the press when your in possession. It's about pissing about with the ball too long in defence and not progressing it up the pitch quick enough.

We play well when quick and crap when slow and our opponents are given a chance to close our defenders down. Hence why most of our issues are brought about through our own dithering. 

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

Winning duels has nothing to do with the press when your in possession. It's about pissing about with the ball too long in defence and not progressing it up the pitch quick enough.

We play well when quick and crap when slow and our opponents are given a chance to close our defenders down. Hence why most of our issues are brought about through our own dithering. 

Well, it most certainly does.

When an opponent moves in on you like a steam train, sometimes more than one, and you stand strong and resist the press, you effectively win the duel......how quick you move it, I accept is another phase to get right.

I accept your point about slow play and dithering ....but I still maintain we should be strong enough to come out on top of a press, more often than not. I accept we are too slow to move the ball, but that is sometimes borne out of our players waiting and not moving to recieve the ball.

[TRO]

47 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Yes for sure. That’s why we did so well with McGinn on the right and JJ or Buendia on the left. It was very natural for them to come in and play in the space above the opposing midfielders pressing our double pivot. 
 
McGinn doesn’t want to come in from the left. Cash at RM against pressure - this is an absolute no for me. 
 
Brighton do a variation of this where their wingers stay very wide but their CF’s drop down in the 10 position asking the CB’s to follow them. 
 
McGinn needs to be on the right space, but injuries have shoe horned him to the left where he’s fine when teams sit back but ineffective against the press. 

He does need to go back on the right.

[avfc1982am]

24 minutes ago, TRO said:

Well, it most certainly does.

When an opponent moves in on you like a steam train, sometimes more than one, and you stand strong and resist the press, you effectively win the duel......how quick you move it, I accept is another phase to get right.

I accept your point about slow play and dithering ....but I still maintain we should be strong enough to come out on top of a press, more often than not. I accept we are too slow to move the ball, but that is sometimes borne out of our players waiting and not moving to recieve the ball.

If your already in possession of the ball you shouldn't need to get into a duel or a challenge. The ball should be moved on before this happens. It's possessing the ball. Holding on the the ball while being challenged in defence is not dueling, it's stupidity. 

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

If your already in possession of the ball you shouldn't need to get into a duel or a challenge. The ball should be moved on before this happens. It's possessing the ball. Holding on the the ball while being challenged in defence is not dueling, it's stupidity. 

I respectfully don't understand your reasoning.....if you have the ball ( in possession) the intention is to stay in possession, until you see fit to release it.....if an opponent challenges you to relieve you of the ball, you automatically enter a duel, you either win the duel and stay in possession or you lose the ball to a turnover.

Your point about releasing the ball before the challenge comes in, has merit, but it is 2 different sub phases of play, in my mind.

There has to come a time in a game, where a pass is not an option, so you have be strong and skilful and say with the ball, until an option becomes available.

Losing a ball in a duel, whatever the circumstances, passes the initiative to the other team, if its done often enough in a game.

Edited September 4, 2023 by TRO

[avfc1982am]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I respectfully don't understand your reasoning.....if you have the ball ( in possession) the intention is to stay in possession, until you see fit to release it.....if an opponent challenges you to relieve you of the ball, you automatically enter a duel, you either win the duel and stay in possession or you lose the ball to a turnover.

Your point about releasing the ball before the challenge comes in, has merit, but it is 2 different sub phases of play, in my mind.

There has to come a time in a game, where a pass is not an option, so you have be strong and skilful and say with the ball, until an option becomes available.

Losing a ball in a duel, whatever the circumstances, passes the initiative to the other team, if its done often enough in a game.

We not talking about in defence and playing the ball out from the back? If so, then the reasoning shouldn't be hard to work out. The onus on us is to negate the press... not by holding on to the ball until challenged but moving it quickly to beat the press. If your caught in possession then you've failed to achieve the basic principle in beating the press. 

It;s all well and good saying we need to be stronger on the ball, but that really isn't the issue being discussed. If your in defence and having to duel or fight to hold onto possession of the ball then you've already failed to meet the objective of playing out from the back. The only time you should be dueling is defensively when out of possession, not in possession. Our problems do not stem from strength on the ball but the pace we play at when playing from the back.