magnkarl Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 21 hours ago, chrisp65 said: When the two sides work to prevent neutral journalism, actively assassinating journalists over a number of years, when no international organisation is safe from Hamas coercion or IDF bombs any level of peer review or independent data gets a little tricky. Israel and its apologists will hide behind the lack of ‘fact’ whilst Hamas and their supporters will come up with their numbers. In a place the size of the Gaza Strip, with millions of innocent families, where designated safe zones are bombed and a third of all buildings have been levelled, I don’t think my personal guesstimate of numbers lost in the dust is unreasonable. If you want to propose a lower number, go for it. No idea who Roger Waters is or what he believes or any of that stuff. I’m trying to avoid randoms and official spokebods for either side. They lie. I don't think either side is right, and I think they both need to be put in a room to talk (or be forced to talk) and have their guns, funding and moral compass taken away from them. That doesn't mean that I think we should be using an opinion piece with no data or critical thinking as some sort of baseline for casualties when not even a terrorist organisation who profits in every way from the numbers being high can manage to invent such high casualty figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 1 minute ago, magnkarl said: I don't think either side is right, and I think they both need to be put in a room to talk (or be forced to talk) and have their guns, funding and moral compass taken away from them. That doesn't mean that I think we should be using an opinion piece with no data or critical thinking as some sort of baseline for casualties when not even a terrorist organisation who profits in every way from the numbers being high can manage to invent such high casualty figures. So if you cannot accept those figures, how do you gauge where the civilian murder total is? Or do you just accept they were Palestinian so probably a bit guilty anyway? Again, if both sides are murdering journalists and non gov agencies, I don’t see how it can be anything but opinion. Gathering data gets you kidnapped by Hamas if the IDF don’t accidentally shoot you in the back of the head first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 Sure this will help with tensions no end. Quote Far-right Israeli minister visits sensitive Jerusalem holy site, threatening Gaza cease-fire talks Israel’s far-right national security minister visited Jerusalem’s most sensitive holy site on Thursday morning, threatening to disrupt Gaza cease-fire talks. Itamar Ben-Gvir, an ultranationalist settler leader, said he had gone up to the contested Jerusalem hilltop compound of Al Aqsa Mosque to pray for the return of the hostages “but without a reckless deal, without surrenduring.” The move threatens to disrupt sensitive talks aimed at reaching a cease-fire in the 9-month-old Israel-Hamas war. Israeli negotiators landed in Cairo on Wednesday to continue talks. The visit also came just days before Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu leaves for a trip to the United States, where he will address Congress. Ben-Gvir said while standing in front of the golden dome of Al-Aqsa Mosque that he “is praying and working hard” to ensure that Netanyahu will not to give in to international pressure and will continue with the military campaign in Gaza. He has been convicted eight times for offenses that include racism and supporting a terrorist organization. As a teen, his views were so extreme that the army banned him from compulsory military service. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-ben-givr-jerusalem-temple-mount-gaza-f92f49c9f2254702f07a6a2af677c89e Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 Just now, sne said: Sure this will help with tensions no end. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-ben-givr-jerusalem-temple-mount-gaza-f92f49c9f2254702f07a6a2af677c89e Calling it Al-Aqsa is in itself wrong. It's the most holy site for Jews. The temple mount. Occupied by who, you say? If you're against occupation then Jordan really should stop occupying the most holy site for Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 18 Moderator Share Posted July 18 23 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: So if you cannot accept those figures, how do you gauge where the civilian murder total is? Well, one way would be to take into account that the figures issued by Hamas might be exaggerated, for their owns reasons (just as is the case in any conflict- where one side will seek to play down the number of casualties they’ve suffered and the other to play the number up). Then there’s the Hamas fighters killed in amongst the civilians. There are other things to consider too, some of which will underplay the number of dead in an incident (we don’t know how many people were in the building that was destroyed, but we’ve recovered 7 bodies, at least 10 are missing) and some which will overplay the number (we don’t know how many people were in the building that was destroyed, but we know 3 families totalling 17 people lived there, so they’re all dead, we say, rather than evacuated or fled or not in at the time of the attack, we just don’t know, but we’re saying all dead). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 Another might be have Hammas ever overstated the numbers before that we have evidence of and if so by how much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 9 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Calling it Al-Aqsa is in itself wrong. It's the most holy site for Jews. The temple mount. Occupied by who, you say? If you're against occupation then Jordan really should stop occupying the most holy site for Jews. Sure, he was there to pray, that's why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 Do Israel ride the momentum and go big after Hezbollah once Hamas are done with? Would that result in a full scale war with Iran? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 Can't see Israel going after Hezbollah in a full scale war - it's one thing bombing kids in tents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 7 minutes ago, blandy said: Well, one way would be to take into account that the figures issued by Hamas might be exaggerated, for their owns reasons (just as is the case in any conflict- where one side will seek to play down the number of casualties they’ve suffered and the other to play the number up). Then there’s the Hamas fighters killed in amongst the civilians. There are other things to consider too, some of which will underplay the number of dead in an incident (we don’t know how many people were in the building that was destroyed, but we’ve recovered 7 bodies, at least 10 are missing) and some which will overplay the number (we don’t know how many people were in the building that was destroyed, but we know 3 families totalling 17 people lived there, so they’re all dead, we say, rather than evacuated or fled or not in at the time of the attack, we just don’t know, but we’re saying all dead). Yes, that’s why its a range, not based on Hamas figures, but based on information from other conflicts and not being presented as hard fact. You can argue that with people kettled in to safe zones and then bombed and with 35% of all buildings destroyed and no possible way of having records of who was where there is a significant chance that over 10 months somewhere within my range of between one thousand to ten thousand unknown unaccounted for civilians have died. As previously said, if someone has a reason to think its less than one thousand, I’d be interested to see their reasoning. There are no observers with clipboards, both sides target them and murder them. That doesn’t mean civilians aren’t being blown up and nobody knew they were even in there. It’s a war, I’d absolutely expect that to be happening. If people think that’s happened to less than 1,000 people, then they are more optimistic than me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 2 minutes ago, Jareth said: Can't see Israel going after Hezbollah in a full scale war - it's one thing bombing kids in tents... Trumps running mate JD Vance has been pushing for the US to attack Iran for years. Once they win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 UK to fund UNRWA again. About bloody time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 Big day today, at least symbolically. Quote UN top court to give opinion on Israeli occupation The UN's top court is set to issue a landmark opinion on the legal consequences of Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories. The International Court of Justice (ICJ), based at The Hague in the Netherlands, has been examining the issue since the beginning of last year, at the request of the UN General Assembly. The court was specifically asked to give its view on Israel's policies and practices towards the Palestinians, and on the legal status of the occupation. Depending on its finding, it could mark the first time the ICJ has delivered a position on whether the 57-year occupation is illegal. In this case, the court will issue an advisory opinion, which is not legally binding but will still carry significant political weight. Israel occupied the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip in the 1967 Middle East war. It withdrew its troops and settlers from Gaza in 2005, retaining control over its airspace, shared border and shoreline. Despite the pullout, the UN still considers Gaza as part of the occupied territories. As the occupying power, Israel's actions in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza are subject to a detailed set of rules under international law governing occupation, designed to protect the occupied civilian population. Before hearings started in February this year, Israel issued a statement saying it did not recognise "the legitimacy of the discussion" at the ICJ. It described the move, which was initiated by the State of Palestine at the UN, as "part of the Palestinian attempt to dictate the results of the political settlement [of the Israel-Palestinian conflict] without negotiations". If the court decides that Israel's occupation is illegal, it will tell all UN bodies and nations they must do nothing to support or contribute to the current situation. Such a ruling could potentially have far-reaching trade implications, but of greatest significance would be the consequences for the legitimacy of Israel's justification for staying in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjerjzxlpvdo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 19 Moderator Share Posted July 19 9 hours ago, omariqy said: Is there a point to this? They detected the polio virus in London's sewage in 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 Why vaccinate pilots dropping bombs from 2,000 feet in the air? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 3 hours ago, bickster said: Is there a point to this? They detected the polio virus in London's sewage in 2022 Many reports of people also drowning in sewage and the tweets follow on from that story. Sorry should have tweeted it all and not assumed people had seen the reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 (edited) 3 hours ago, sne said: Big day today, at least symbolically. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjerjzxlpvdo Happening now. Cue apologists questioning the court's jurisdiction. Edited July 19 by Jareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 On 18/07/2024 at 09:21, chrisp65 said: Hmmm, they seem to have missed one building in the bottom right corner. Silly fools can't even bomb properly. (Please note - yes, this sarcasm, i'm not being serious). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 On 18/07/2024 at 09:03, Wainy316 said: Do Israel ride the momentum and go big after Hezbollah once Hamas are done with? Will the war with Hamas ever be done with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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