Israel, Palestine and Iran

[magnkarl]

I don't necessarily agree but an argument about this conflict aired by a growing number of military experts raise the following argument about double standards:

During Operation Overlord, as many as 20.000 French civilians died of allied bombing when the RAF and USAF tried to break the stalemate around Rouen, Le Havre, Caen and so forth after D-day, that's before we even get to the bombing of German cities. 44k dead in the Blitz in the UK, 400k dead civilians from UK-US bombing in German cities.

Japan killed a total of 2400 people at Pearl Harbour, America's response? 2-300k dead in nuclear bombings, 3-400k dead from the firebombing of Japanese cities as the US didn't want to commit soldiers to winning the war conventionally.

Assad's army has killed roughly 500.000 including Turks and Arabs in the Syrian civil war, in Yemen Arabs have killed Arabs at a pace that makes Israeli bombing look like children's play, in Sudan the RSF has displaced 10 million people and the UN is reporting that whole villages and areas of Darfur are being ethnically cleansed of anyone not Muslim or Arab, with an estimated death toll of 400.000.

For reference, the ICC is still investigating Syrian war crimes, and have not gone out publicly and announced that they'll charge Syrian officials like they did with Israel even though the war has gone on for 10 years, RSF and Houthis doesn't even get a mention in the ICC due to not being a signatory, just like Israel. It feels like people find their voice on Israel, be it the UN, ICC, protest marches and so forth, but lose it completely when it comes to far worse. There are more UN resolutions against Israel than all other nations in the middle east combined, with lovely places like Iran, Syria, Iraq, Qatar, UAE and Yemen doing their best at destroying people's lives and statistically causing more death, displacement and suffering than Israel in every instance.

I went to a demonstration outside 10 Downing Street today, trying to get the UK government to cut ties with UAE over supporting the RSF, a whooping total of 120 people attended, mostly Sudanese refugees from said ethnic groups. They're not being heard. Most of them think they're not being heard as their conflict and people aren't popular among university students, the left and the people who complain about apartheid and genocide in Palestine. I got to speaking to a Massalit man of 62 years who came to this country three years ago who has lost 16 people in his extended family in the last 2 months in Darfur. His take? 'If Jews attacked us I'm sure we'd be plastered all over the news 24/7, like the Palestinian cause is. Yet we've never attacked Arabs in Sudan, like the Palestinians and Arabs have attacked Israel for as long as I can remember.'

The culture war element here feels like it matters more than victims and facts, Palestine is popular, other areas aren't. It's ¤"#% depressing that they get so much support even after doing a total of zilch to contributing to peace, while other groups get slaughtered by their millions without there being encampments, BDS, cries of genocide and apartheid against their oppressors. Hamas and Iran have already won this war mainly through PR. The focus is entirely on Israel while ethnic cleansing goes widely unnoticed by the same people that is claimed to be oppressed in the ME. Where are the furious second and third generation Arabs that are prowling Barnet for Jews to target for Israeli crimes? Silent. I find it completely disheartening that it appears to be the persecutor of the war that enrages people rather than the facts, figures or reason, or else they'd be there today to protest with us.

Edited June 8 by magnkarl

[Nor-Cal Villan]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

I don't necessarily agree but an argument about this conflict aired by a growing number of military experts raise the following argument about double standards:

During Operation Overlord, as many as 20.000 French civilians died of allied bombing when the RAF and USAF tried to break the stalemate around Rouen, Le Havre, Caen and so forth after D-day, that's before we even get to the bombing of German cities. 44k dead in the Blitz in the UK, 400k dead civilians from UK-US bombing in German cities.

Japan killed a total of 2400 people at Pearl Harbour, America's response? 2-300k dead in nuclear bombings, 3-400k dead from the firebombing of Japanese cities as the US didn't want to commit soldiers to winning the war conventionally.

Assad's army has killed roughly 500.000 including Turks and Arabs in the Syrian civil war, in Yemen Arabs have killed Arabs at a pace that makes Israeli bombing look like children's play, in Sudan the RSF has displaced 10 million people and the UN is reporting that whole villages and areas of Darfur are being ethnically cleansed of anyone not Muslim or Arab, with an estimated death toll of 400.000.

For reference, the ICC is still investigating Syrian war crimes, and have not gone out publicly and announced that they'll charge Syrian officials like they did with Israel even though the war has gone on for 10 years, RSF and Houthis doesn't even get a mention in the ICC due to not being a signatory, just like Israel. It feels like people find their voice on Israel, be it the UN, ICC, protest marches and so forth, but lose it completely when it comes to far worse. There are more UN resolutions against Israel than all other nations in the middle east combined, with lovely places like Iran, Syria, Iraq, Qatar, UAE and Yemen doing their best at destroying people's lives and statistically causing more death, displacement and suffering than Israel in every instance.

I went to a demonstration outside 10 Downing Street today, trying to get the UK government to cut ties with UAE over supporting the RSF, a whooping total of 120 people attended, mostly Sudanese refugees from said ethnic groups. They're not being heard. Most of them think they're not being heard as their conflict and people aren't popular among university students, the left and the people who complain about apartheid and genocide in Palestine. I got to speaking to a Massalit man of 62 years who came to this country three years ago who has lost 16 people in his extended family in the last 2 months in Darfur. His take? 'If Jews attacked us I'm sure we'd be plastered all over the news 24/7, like the Palestinian cause is. Yet we've never attacked Arabs in Sudan, like the Palestinians and Arabs have attacked Israel for as long as I can remember.'

The culture war element here feels like it matters more than victims and facts, Palestine is popular, other areas aren't. It's ¤"#% depressing that they get so much support even after doing a total of zilch to contributing to peace, while other groups get slaughtered by their millions without there being encampments, BDS, cries of genocide and apartheid against their oppressors. Hamas and Iran have already won this war mainly through PR. The focus is entirely on Israel while ethnic cleansing goes widely unnoticed by the same people that is claimed to be oppressed in the ME. Where are the furious second and third generation Arabs that are prowling Barnet for Jews to target for Israeli crimes? Silent. I find it completely disheartening that it appears to be the persecutor of the war that enrages people rather than the facts, figures or reason, or else they'd be there today to protest with us.

That’s a bit simplistic. You make it sound as if nothing at all happened between December 7, 1941 and August 6, 1945. Not defending the use of atomic bombs but let’s be real, the Japanese did a lot in the 44  months in between 

[tinker]

The Great Winston Churchill once said “History is written by the Victors.” 

[Nor-Cal Villan]

39 minutes ago, tinker said:

The Great Winston Churchill once said “History is written by the Victors.” 

The Lone Ranger’s nephew’s horse 

IYKYK

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, Nor-Cal Villan said:

That’s a bit simplistic. You make it sound as if nothing at all happened between December 7, 1941 and August 6, 1945. Not defending the use of atomic bombs but let’s be real, the Japanese did a lot in the 44  months in between 

It's simplistic, simplistic is the only thing that gets through to the masses. Israel bad, Palestine\Arabs good. From one aquatic body to the next! Why else does no one give a flying hoot about people who are totally without guilt, unlike the Palestinians, yet have the same amount of people supporting their cause as you'd find in 10 seconds passing you by in a London rally for Palestine?

The whole thing is wildly depressing. The media war has been effectively won by Hamas\Iran\Al Jazeera and various trolls on social media.

Maybe we should get some Israeli government official to say something about the victims in Darfur, then the attention would likely be there in an instant.

Edited June 8 by magnkarl

[tinker]

57 minutes ago, Nor-Cal Villan said:

The Lone Ranger’s nephew’s horse 

IYKYK

Wouldn't that be Victor's ? 

[chrisp65]

12 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

It's simplistic, simplistic is the only thing that gets through to the masses. Israel bad, Palestine\Arabs good. From one aquatic body to the next! Why else does no one give a flying hoot about people who are totally without guilt, unlike the Palestinians, yet have the same amount of people supporting their cause as you'd find in 10 seconds passing you by in a London rally for Palestine?

The whole thing is wildly depressing. The media war has been effectively won by Hamas\Iran\Al Jazeera and various trolls on social media.

Maybe we should get some Israeli government official to say something about the victims in Darfur, then the attention would likely be there in an instant.

Was that a quickly dashed out rant you want to correct, or do you genuinely believe the thousands of dead Palestinians are guilty?

 

 

 

[Nor-Cal Villan]

7 minutes ago, tinker said:

Wouldn't that be Victor's ? 

[magnkarl]

37 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Was that a quickly dashed out rant you want to correct, or do you genuinely believe the thousands of dead Palestinians are guilty?

 

 

 

I believe that there are thousands of Palestinians dead in Gaza who are Hamas. They started with 40.000 fighters, I've probably seen enough combat footage to qualify that there are at least two thousand dead Hamas fighters with black headbands. It's the backside of being a friend of a British family who lost their daughter at the nova festival, who are full of vengeance and bitterness.

I don't believe that civilian Palestinians are guilty of Oct 7th (though some participated), I do believe Palestinian leaders and the people aren't exactly guilt free when it comes to trying to deescalate. They've been given peace deals that any other country losing a war would only dream of over and over but have kept on denying that Israel is there to stay. Hamas are Palestinians, as much as the civilians. All civilian loss of life is a tragedy. The point I was making is that people don't give a toss about civilian life unless it's for a cause they support, and that it somehow appears to me that they care extra about it if it is Jews who do the bombing, rather than Arabs, Americans, Brits or Russians, even if the other bombs kill more, or the other regimes are ten times worse in their behaviour (Iran, Syria, RSF, Qatar).

Edited June 8 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

31 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

 It's the backside of being a friend of a British family who lost their daughter at the nova festival, who are full of vengeance and bitterness.

With respect, this makes you biased. 

[bickster]

8 minutes ago, Jareth said:

With respect, this makes you biased. 

With respect, everyone has biases, the people that have the problem are the ones that don’t acknowledge it.

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

With respect, everyone has biases, the people that have the problem are the ones that don’t acknowledge it.

No like I mean it's the sort of thing that rules you out of being a jury member. 

[chrisp65]

21 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I believe that there are thousands of Palestinians dead in Gaza who are Hamas. They started with 40.000 fighters, I've probably seen enough combat footage to qualify that there are at least two thousand dead Hamas fighters with black headbands. It's the backside of being a friend of a British family who lost their daughter at the nova festival, who are full of vengeance and bitterness.

I don't believe that civilian Palestinians are guilty of Oct 7th (though some participated), I do believe Palestinian leaders and the people aren't exactly guilt free when it comes to trying to deescalate. They've been given peace deals that any other country losing a war would only dream of over and over but have kept on denying that Israel is there to stay. Hamas are Palestinians, as much as the civilians. All civilian loss of life is a tragedy. The point I was making is that people don't give a toss about civilian life unless it's for a cause they support, and that it somehow appears to me that they care extra about it if it is Jews who do the bombing, rather than Arabs, Americans, Brits or Russians, even if the other bombs kill more, or the other regimes are ten times worse in their behaviour (Iran, Syria, RSF, Qatar).

For what it’s worth, I think it’s a mistake to repeatedly say Palestinians are guilty. I also believe it’s a mistake to try and think what others are thinking. 

 

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, Jareth said:

No like I mean it's the sort of thing that rules you out of being a jury member. 

Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds? You aren't allowed to express an opinion on something because … you know someone affected. What? 
A jury is a VERY specific thing, with very specific rules

[Jareth]

Just now, bickster said:

Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds? You aren't allowed to express an opinion on something because … you know someone affected. What? 
A jury is a VERY specific thing, with very specific rules

Did not say opinions were disallowed.

[bickster]

3 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Did not say opinions were disallowed.

No you as good as said his opinion was invalid

[Jareth]

Just now, bickster said:

No you as good as said his opinion was invalid

I said it was biased. And, for good reason. I would be exactly the same. 

[bickster]

6 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I said it was biased. And, for good reason. I would be exactly the same. 

You are exactly the same, that’s the point, you have biases, we all do. But in that post you quoted, the poster acknowledged theirs and that is the difference.

Your post was an attempt to devalue someone’s opinion because it was biased. 
Imagine saying to someone your opinion has less validity because you know of people who have actual lived experience. Absolutely mental thing to say.

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

You are exactly the same, that’s the point, you have biases, we all do. But in that post you quoted, the poster acknowledged theirs and that is the difference.

I don't have mates who have suffered directly from the current conflict - I have no skin in the game. Am I equally biased? 

[omariqy]

Hamas have also agreed to deals put forward by negotiating intermediaries have they not? In fact these 4 hostages were part of one of the deals. Maybe 200 innocent people didn’t need to be murdered or aid trucks be used to hid Israeli soldiers in. But what do I know. If October 7th happened then it would just be the usual hundreds of innocent people who die every year at the hands of Israel rather than tens of thousands.

Most who are protesting didn’t really care about this until this. I’ve been to plenty of protests on this or against Assad or Putin and there’s never been this level of activism on an issue before (apart from the Iraq war). People may say Hamas have won the social media war or maybe it’s just social media finally shows people what Israel do on semi regular basis. Imagine if people had paid attention before. I mean it wasn’t long as Palestinians attempted a peaceful protest and were gunned down. 
 

edit: btw on any issue people have bias. I have bias on this issue and I don’t hide it. I just think it’s part of human nature.

Edited June 8 by omariqy