blandy Posted July 15 Moderator Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, regular_john said: Hamas' entire strategy is based on war crimes and yet they somehow remain blameless That’s exactly what absolutely nobody has said. But regardless of the horrors committed by Hamas and the hiding amongst civilians, it’s still a crime against humanity to bomb the civilians because in amongst them is a terrorist(s). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 15 Moderator Share Posted July 15 12 minutes ago, Mozzavfc said: David Lammy met with both sides yesterday pushing for immediate ceasefire. Wonder if that'll take the wind out of Corbyn's coalition Not really, famous Corbyn fanboi posting as disingenuously as ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regular_john Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, blandy said: That’s exactly what absolutely nobody has said. But regardless of the horrors committed by Hamas and the hiding amongst civilians, it’s still a crime against humanity to bomb the civilians because in amongst them is a terrorist(s). Wasn't referencing VT or this thread specifically, but there seems to be an overwhelming refusal to hold Hamas responsible for their crimes amongst the supporters of Palestine. Try criticising Hamas at a pro-Palestine rally and see how it goes down. As for your second point, and this may seem horrifically cruel (but war is cruel by nature), but to my knowledge it is not a crime if civilians are killed in an attempt to take out a legitimate military target. It is, however, a crime to hide amongst civilians or within civilian infrastructure if you are a combatant as your presence makes whatever building you are in a legitimate military target. Not saying any of this is 'right' or 'moral', but war rarely is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 15 Moderator Share Posted July 15 14 minutes ago, regular_john said: it is not a crime if civilians are killed in an attempt to take out a legitimate military target Two things to that. Targeting civilians is a war crime. However if civilians are killed in an attempt to take out a legitimate military target, then “proportionality” is the key to legality or not. My perception is that Israel has repeatedly targeted civilians, but even if they haven’t and have only targeted Hamas, the proportionality defence doesn’t stack up. The UN seems concerned about that, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 Quote Far-right groups that block aid to Gaza receive tax-deductible donations from US and Israel Under American pressure, Israel has pledged to deliver large quantities of humanitarian aid into the war-ravaged Gaza Strip. But at the same time, the U.S. and Israel have allowed tax-deductible donations to far-right groups that have blocked that aid from being delivered. Three groups that have prevented humanitarian aid from reaching Gaza — including one accused of looting or destroying supplies — have raised more than $200,000 from donors in the U.S. and Israel, The Associated Press and the Israeli investigative site Shomrim have found in an examination of crowdfunding websites and other public records. Incentivizing these donations by making them tax-deductible runs counter to America’s and Israel’s stated commitments to allow unlimited food, water and medicine into Gaza, say groups working to get more aid into the territory. Donations have continued even after the U.S. imposed sanctions against one of these groups. All three groups, which have ties with Israel’s ultranationalist far right, say Israel should not be aiding the Palestinians as long as Hamas is holding dozens of people hostage. They also claim that Hamas is stealing much of the aid, though aid groups have disputed that. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-aid-humanitarian-nonprofit-69582d193ce270d63d5865ac0ead2df0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 On 10/07/2024 at 18:03, omariqy said: This is the Lancet not Ministry of Health or Al Jazeera. Look forward to hearing how Qatar funds them and they are a proxy for the Iranian health authorities. Except there is actually no evidence whatsoever presented in this "article"? No model estimations or anything. Literally just a sentence saying there could be 4x more deaths than what is reported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 16 VT Supporter Share Posted July 16 1 hour ago, sne said: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-aid-humanitarian-nonprofit-69582d193ce270d63d5865ac0ead2df0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 12 minutes ago, a-k said: Except there is actually no evidence whatsoever presented in this "article"? No model estimations or anything. Literally just a sentence saying there could be 4x more deaths than what is reported. The whole article is explaining there is no hard data and how estimates are arrived at by various bodies in other conflicts. Somebody has jumped on the high end figure, that doesn’t discredit the work. I can’t imagine a situation where there aren’t unknown numbers of unidentified dead people flattened between the floors of flats, schools, and hospitals in designated safe zones. Whether that number is 1000 or 10000 we will probably never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 36 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: The whole article is explaining there is no hard data and how estimates are arrived at by various bodies in other conflicts. Somebody has jumped on the high end figure, that doesn’t discredit the work. I can’t imagine a situation where there aren’t unknown numbers of unidentified dead people flattened between the floors of flats, schools, and hospitals in designated safe zones. Whether that number is 1000 or 10000 we will probably never know. Given the infrastructure destroyed and just the number of buildings it’s highly probable that it’s many thousands at least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 16 VT Supporter Share Posted July 16 5 hours ago, omariqy said: Nah it's fine because *handwaves bullshit that ok's soldiers killing a disabled person with a dog and attempts to obscure the point* They're scum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 14 hours ago, chrisp65 said: The whole article is explaining there is no hard data and how estimates are arrived at by various bodies in other conflicts. Somebody has jumped on the high end figure, that doesn’t discredit the work. I can’t imagine a situation where there aren’t unknown numbers of unidentified dead people flattened between the floors of flats, schools, and hospitals in designated safe zones. Whether that number is 1000 or 10000 we will probably never know. It's very possible that the numbers are greater than reported. But, it also doesn't discredit what I said. The "article" is just an opinion piece. The Lancet has also published many articles that have later been retracted, and these "correspondence" letters are not peer-reviewed, so I wouldn't blindly believe the headlines just because "it's the Lancet". While the numbers may turn out to be correct in the end, the article itself is not hard evidence and the tweet is sensationalism at its finest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 (edited) 15 hours ago, chrisp65 said: The whole article is explaining there is no hard data and how estimates are arrived at by various bodies in other conflicts. Somebody has jumped on the high end figure, that doesn’t discredit the work. I can’t imagine a situation where there aren’t unknown numbers of unidentified dead people flattened between the floors of flats, schools, and hospitals in designated safe zones. Whether that number is 1000 or 10000 we will probably never know. I'm sure we'll know - Hamas has been collecting population data for about 20 years and Egypt is logging every person they let out. I do find the blind faith in a 'study' without data, without peer reviews and with essentially extremely thin reasoning quite telling. When it goes over the reported figures of Hamas' health ministry, surely some bells should be ringing? 1000 or 10000 is a big disparity, and it really doesn't help the Pro-Palestinian cause that it's filled with as much hyperbole as Likud's propaganda machinery. A bit like Roger Waters it appears that people are willing to believe anything in order to justify their already quite justified their rage of Israeli actions - constantly increasing their own echo-chamber's hate. Edited July 17 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 1 hour ago, a-k said: It's very possible that the numbers are greater than reported. But, it also doesn't discredit what I said. The "article" is just an opinion piece. The Lancet has also published many articles that have later been retracted, and these "correspondence" letters are not peer-reviewed, so I wouldn't blindly believe the headlines just because "it's the Lancet". While the numbers may turn out to be correct in the end, the article itself is not hard evidence and the tweet is sensationalism at its finest. The tweet is a tweet and should be treated as such. The Lancet information appears reasonable and I think it would be for someone to put a counter argument against there being thousands of unaccounted dead people either sandwiched between the pages of concrete, or eaten by dogs. It is certainly more ‘believable’ than the IDF maps of safe zones, targeted strikes, and investigations of incidents where small children running away are accidentally shot in the back of the head. Hamas are terrorists and need to be dealt accordingly. Unfortunately, the IDF on behalf of Israel are expansionist war criminals, so they aren’t the right people to be doing it. Two cheeks of the same foul arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 1 hour ago, magnkarl said: I'm sure we'll know - Hamas has been collecting population data for about 20 years and Egypt is logging every person they let out. I do find the blind faith in a 'study' without data, without peer reviews and with essentially extremely thin reasoning quite telling. When it goes over the reported figures of Hamas' health ministry, surely some bells should be ringing? 1000 or 10000 is a big disparity, and it really doesn't help the Pro-Palestinian cause that it's filled with as much hyperbole as Likud's propaganda machinery. A bit like Roger Waters it appears that people are willing to believe anything in order to justify their already quite justified their rage of Israeli actions - constantly increasing their own echo-chamber's hate. When the two sides work to prevent neutral journalism, actively assassinating journalists over a number of years, when no international organisation is safe from Hamas coercion or IDF bombs any level of peer review or independent data gets a little tricky. Israel and its apologists will hide behind the lack of ‘fact’ whilst Hamas and their supporters will come up with their numbers. In a place the size of the Gaza Strip, with millions of innocent families, where designated safe zones are bombed and a third of all buildings have been levelled, I don’t think my personal guesstimate of numbers lost in the dust is unreasonable. If you want to propose a lower number, go for it. No idea who Roger Waters is or what he believes or any of that stuff. I’m trying to avoid randoms and official spokebods for either side. They lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 3 hours ago, chrisp65 said: When the two sides work to prevent neutral journalism, actively assassinating journalists over a number of years, when no international organisation is safe from Hamas coercion or IDF bombs any level of peer review or independent data gets a little tricky. Israel and its apologists will hide behind the lack of ‘fact’ whilst Hamas and their supporters will come up with their numbers. In a place the size of the Gaza Strip, with millions of innocent families, where designated safe zones are bombed and a third of all buildings have been levelled, I don’t think my personal guesstimate of numbers lost in the dust is unreasonable. If you want to propose a lower number, go for it. No idea who Roger Waters is or what he believes or any of that stuff. I’m trying to avoid randoms and official spokebods for either side. They lie. He’s just another brick in the wall. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 17 Moderator Share Posted July 17 3 hours ago, chrisp65 said: No idea who Roger Waters is or what he believes or any of that stuff. I’m trying to avoid randoms and official spokebods for either side. They lie. The arsehole who used to be in Pink Floyd that thinks Russia is right and NATO prompted the war in Ukraine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Ahh, a celebrity on social media. Never knowingly heard Pink Floyd, I’d know that brick in the wall dirge, but other than that, a Mooneyesque blank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Either way the reported death toll is most certainly a conservative estimate. Never mind the ramifications of the war in the immediate months, years, decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 17 VT Supporter Share Posted July 17 You're all missing the point. Israel are the good guys, and shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts